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Carrier to relocate 1,400 Indianapolis jobs to Mexico

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MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,064
121
I guess the OP had to start something other than griping about how gas prices will be skyrocketing I guess.

Everything you posted is pretty much just business as usual these days.

Trump would promote it.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,064
121
Globalization is a weasel word. Call it what it is, the rise in power of corporations.

One solution to global labor arbitrage is a VAT.
Globalization is a fact of life for the Corporations that are now people and have had rights now for decades.

If you haven't figured that out by now you're either young or really ignorant.

That or you did not know what the term meant to begin with, is really the destruction of the middle class for a long time now.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,064
121
Stop obsessing over me, sicko. No means no.
I do not obsess over you, it seems like you obsess over me whenever I comment to you. I try to forget you exist most of the time.

I just post responses when I run across yours now and then.

You seem to think I'm following you around for some weird reason, even when I do not comment on a post from you for days.

But you're just being you, again.
 
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Brian Stirling

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2010
4,000
2
0
When one competitor in the industry decides to offshore jobs to save a buck they all have to or be undercut on the price of the product at retail.
And therein lays the problem...

But, when these free trade deals were being promoted by Bill Clinton et al the response to the giant sucking sound from the promoters was that "...well some may lose there factory jobs but they'll get better jobs..."

How's that worked out for the hundreds of communities that have had a factory close and move to some other country?


Brian
 

elitejp

Golden Member
Jan 2, 2010
1,077
19
81
I think they addressed the situation pretty clearly. A higher cost of doing business due to govt regulations has led them to go overseas before going bankrupt. And trust me the gov and the govt knew this could happen. It wasnt a surprise.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
This is a start.

Hopefully every HVAC Company in the U.S. will no longer uses Carrier products:

2-11-2016

http://wishtv.com/2016/02/11/company-boycotts-carrier-in-sympathy-for-laid-off-workers/

Companies cut Carrier products from their services

A HVAC company owner is turning his back on one of his biggest suppliers after he said the supplier turned its back on its employees.

“We’re not helping buy a CEO their 5th vacation home, we’re helping feed our family,” said R.D. Poffenbarger as he installed a thermostat.

He owns 911 Heating and Cooling in Anderson and is loyal to his suppliers.

“I’ve used Carrier products in my company the whole time,” he said spanning 16 years in business. But he said that won’t happen anymore, not after what Carrier announced Wednesday.

“They were always promoting that they were made in the U.S. and it just shocked me that they would (relocate to Mexico),” he said.

The out-of-the-country move is part of the reason why Poffenbarger says he’ll no longer use Carrier products. “You notice different workmanship…failures,” he said. “It just gets to be a cheaper product.”

Poffenbarger plans to use only suppliers like Goodman or Ameristar going forward.

Earlier in the day, Poffenbarger said he was at a HVAC supply store. He said while there, other heating and air company owners told him they agreed with his decision. He said the supply store was also contemplating not carrying Carrier products.
HVAC installer has some good points, but throws in a heavy dose of racism. Theres no reason a Mexican cant assembly a HVAC unit as well as an American. zip zero none.
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,628
4
81
HVAC installer has some good points, but throws in a heavy dose of racism. Theres no reason a Mexican cant assembly a HVAC unit as well as an American. zip zero none.
Every product that I have ever used that has been relocated to China, India, and Mexico has always gone south in quality and by a lot.

The most recent send off to Mexico I have personally experienced, Cree LED light bulbs. They moved from the US exactly 1 year ago this month, now those same bulbs that were doing great that are rated for 22 years are now barely making it to 6 months. They buzz now even when not on a dimmer, they used to be cool to the touch when built here and now some are getting so hot you can't touch them. I'm not alone in what I have experienced either, lots of the same exact complaints in user reviews.

But I know, the offshoring apologists favorite line is "Built to spec" right? Sure.. built to spec with the most loose tolerances and the most garbage lead and mercury tainted steel and plastics you will find on earth. Maybe we can give awards on the record amounts of impurities found in cheap steel so China can get that crown every year.

I guess for me it is funny though watching you guys save money over me on the initial purchase and then 4 trips to the store for you and 3X the money later still in a permanent replacement cycle, while my US made tool or appliance is just starting to break in.

As for the subject at hand, I have a 1979 AirEase furnace that still runs perfectly, our Xcel Electricity/Gas bill for January was $120 for a 2500 sq ft house. Enjoy your Carriers that won't make it 20 years.. hell they will probably need heavy repair by the first decade.
 
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Triumph

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,032
13
81
I'm not exactly sure where all of the costs lie, but profit margins on HVAC equipment are ridiculously high. I was quoted ~$8k for a new system for my 2,000 sq ft townhouse. Simply remove old furnace and outside unit, install new components in place, some duct work transitions, etc. Basically 1 day of work for 2 guys, which is pretty standard. I have a trusted connection from a dealer in another state who gave me the hardware cost. It was $3,000. That's the dealers cost, Trane's profit is already built into that price. So where is the other $5k going? I understand moving off-shore for industries where profit margins are extremely thin, like electronics or mass produced widgets, but HVAC?
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,628
4
81
I'm not exactly sure where all of the costs lie, but profit margins on HVAC equipment are ridiculously high. I was quoted ~$8k for a new system for my 2,000 sq ft townhouse. Simply remove old furnace and outside unit, install new components in place, some duct work transitions, etc. Basically 1 day of work for 2 guys, which is pretty standard. I have a trusted connection from a dealer in another state who gave me the hardware cost. It was $3,000. That's the dealers cost, Trane's profit is already built into that price. So where is the other $5k going? I understand moving off-shore for industries where profit margins are extremely thin, like electronics or mass produced widgets, but HVAC?
Because nothing is ever enough anymore and if your profit margins are not in the thousands percentile then you are a 'failure' as a company.

Wait until you need a basic part for that Trane and the only way to get the part is either grey market or a certified Trane reseller that has to install it for you.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,495
554
126
Carrier is also closing another facility in northern Indiana that will cost another 700 jobs.

Screw them.

Scratch Carrier off my list of suppliers.

Screw them.
Yep. I think we'll replace our AC and furnace within the next 5 years and Carrier won't be considered. I believe our furnace is Trane and we'll go with Trane next time as well.
 
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desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,276
52
91
http://www.wsj.com/articles/why-auto-makers-are-building-new-factories-in-mexico-not-the-u-s-1426645802

You can argue quality but I'd say after initial startup and fitup bumps they are competitive and cost 1/4 pretty good incentive on labor.

This article points out why Mexico is better through Free trade as in they have signed many more agreements than the US which gives them access to a lot more markets than just the US alone.
All the pure capitalists on here should be cheering for the proper utilization of labor? CEO's get bonuses by the quarter for stock evaluations, so happy happy!
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
28,211
8,054
136
I think they addressed the situation pretty clearly. A higher cost of doing business due to govt regulations has led them to go overseas before going bankrupt. And trust me the gov and the govt knew this could happen. It wasnt a surprise.
They were the only company that had to deal with new regulations? I guess you don't know bullshit when you see it.
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
32
86
Interested to know what regulations were too burdensome for this business to continue.

Sad too because these are bread-and-butter middle class jobs. The jobs range from $14 per hour workers ($30k per year) to $26 per hour workers (making $55k per year.) Couldn't find any information on the "regulations" that are too burdensome. I'm guessing they mean they can't dump waste into the water supply in the US, but that is A-Okay in Mexico. They likely want to be closer to their supply chain as well since a lot of parts are made in Mexico. When fabrication leaves the US then assembly soon follows due to "supply chain optimization." Don't be fooled.
 
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desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,276
52
91
With globalization middle America has priced itself out of the market for low utility/skill assembly jobs.
I can reflectively look back over the job market and economy since I entered the workforce in 1980 and no it isn't the same, however different isn't necessarily bad either.
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,628
4
81
Interested to know what regulations were too burdensome for this business to continue.

Sad too because these are bread-and-butter middle class jobs. The jobs range from $14 per hour workers ($30k per year) to $26 per hour workers (making $55k per year.) Couldn't find any information on the "regulations" that are too burdensome. I'm guessing they mean they can't dump waste into the water supply in the US, but that is A-Okay in Mexico. They likely want to be closer to their supply chain as well since a lot of parts are made in Mexico. When fabrication leaves the US then assembly soon follows due to "supply chain optimization." Don't be fooled.
You said it.. ability to dump waste into the water or where ever and cheaper labor.

Corporations like to paint a complicated picture because it helps them with their excuse, but it's not at all complicated, greed is 100% the driver.

I'm tired of hearing that we don't have the facilities here in the US to do any of this, we took plants that were building civilian equipment and turned them into war factories for WW2, if we could once do that we can sure as hell manufacture any and everything it takes to build a furnace in todays day and age.

My favorite hypocrisy from people like Tim Crook is when he says that "ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE" and then says that bringing manufacturing back the the US isn't possible.
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,488
3,826
136
Even if there were no environmental laws or regulations introduced since the 90's you'd still see these businesses jumping ship to other countries. If US says no to untreated hazardous waste while Mexico and China say yes, why stay here?

Free Trade'll fix it!
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
You said it.. ability to dump waste into the water or where ever and cheaper labor.

Corporations like to paint a complicated picture because it helps them with their excuse, but it's not at all complicated, greed is 100% the driver.

I'm tired of hearing that we don't have the facilities here in the US to do any of this, we took plants that were building civilian equipment and turned them into war factories for WW2, if we could once do that we can sure as hell manufacture any and everything it takes to build a furnace in todays day and age.

My favorite hypocrisy from people like Tim Crook is when he says that "ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE" and then says that bringing manufacturing back the the US isn't possible.
Do you shop on price?

Why so greedy?
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,628
4
81
Even if there were no environmental laws or regulations introduced since the 90's you'd still see these businesses jumping ship to other countries. If US says no to untreated hazardous waste while Mexico and China say yes, why stay here?

Free Trade'll fix it!
C'mon TPP is only good for us, that is why these guys have such big smiles about it

 

Jerem

Senior member
May 25, 2014
301
38
91
My new place came with Goodman. The AC has done well but the blower for the furnace went after 7 years and when the HVAC came, he was surprised that it lasted that long. Instead of ordering a Goodman blower to replace it which would have taken days(in the middle of winter), he went back to his shop and retrofitted a Trane blower and told it will outlast the furnace.
I've got twin Goodman's on my roof. A couple years back I lost the blowers in both units within months of each other. The control boards in the blower housings went and they are programmed specifically for my model. $500 bucks a piece and I did my own labor. Goodman would only sell to an authorized dealer so I had to go through Sears. These units were 10yrs. old. Next time I'm going to build a relay board and use a standard blower instead of this variable DC unit I have now.
 

local

Golden Member
Jun 28, 2011
1,681
381
136
Carrier is also closing another facility in northern Indiana that will cost another 700 jobs.

Screw them.



Yep. I think we'll replace our AC and furnace within the next 5 years and Carrier won't be considered. I believe our furnace is Trane and we'll go with Trane next time as well.
So, just to clarify. It is OK to close American plants and move them to Mexico as long as it didn't happen recently?

http://www.achrnews.com/articles/91325-trane-relocates-product-production
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-367202
http://www.manufacturing.net/news/2008/11/trane-sheds-270-jobs-moves-work-mexico

The people of Mexico thank you for the jobs provided by firing Americans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgE4xcKfwe4
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
19,275
10,086
136
Every product that I have ever used that has been relocated to China, India, and Mexico has always gone south in quality and by a lot.

The most recent send off to Mexico I have personally experienced, Cree LED light bulbs. They moved from the US exactly 1 year ago this month, now those same bulbs that were doing great that are rated for 22 years are now barely making it to 6 months. They buzz now even when not on a dimmer, they used to be cool to the touch when built here and now some are getting so hot you can't touch them. I'm not alone in what I have experienced either, lots of the same exact complaints in user reviews.

But I know, the offshoring apologists favorite line is "Built to spec" right? Sure.. built to spec with the most loose tolerances and the most garbage lead and mercury tainted steel and plastics you will find on earth. Maybe we can give awards on the record amounts of impurities found in cheap steel so China can get that crown every year.

I guess for me it is funny though watching you guys save money over me on the initial purchase and then 4 trips to the store for you and 3X the money later still in a permanent replacement cycle, while my US made tool or appliance is just starting to break in.

As for the subject at hand, I have a 1979 AirEase furnace that still runs perfectly, our Xcel Electricity/Gas bill for January was $120 for a 2500 sq ft house. Enjoy your Carriers that won't make it 20 years.. hell they will probably need heavy repair by the first decade.
Every cree bulb I have ever bought failed in less than two years. They are overpriced crap as far as I am concerned. Phillips and Ikea bulbs have zero failures so far.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,495
554
126

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