Career research

[Kalmah]

I'm on the verge of enrolling in a tech school that provides 2 year degrees.

Right now I'm stuck between web development and computer programming. Max money isn't an issue. I'm more concerned with job availability and work environment.

By 'work environment' I mean the type of people I would most likely be working with. I got a dental assisting diploma a few years back... I like the job.. but after working in about 5 different offices I decided that I really couldn't stand the people I was working with. Everbody has their nose up in the air. Basically if I mentioned anything about a computer(such as news I read on the net, or gaming or anything).. They would basically tell me to get a life and that 'I was on the internet too much' bla bla bla. While all they talked about is materialistic fashion and how stuck up they are. (without getting into details.. not only where they a$$holes, but I believe all their parents where rich so they didn't have a concern for anything other than themselves)

Well, since then I've been working at circuit city. I enjoy being around all my co-workers. It's pretty much a fun work place all around. But of course, it's not something I am willing to stick with.. and it isn't going to get me out of my parents' house anytime soon.

So now I'm looking at these two courses. I've tinkered in both areas. I was learning HTML when I was 12-13, and I've always enjoyed playing around with C programming. (I programmed modules in a game called Neverwinter Nights for several years which is similar variation to C)

Any advice on which course I should choose? which is going to be easier to get a job?

I appreciate it.

 

[tfinch2]

It's going to be easier to get a job in any type of programming if you have a bachelors in CS.

Unless you are a great programmer, I don't see many openings in any type of programming without a degree.

 

[Pacemaker]

Originally posted by: tfinch2
It's going to be easier to get a job in any type of programming if you have a bachelors in CS.

Unless you are a great programmer, I don't see many openings in any type of programming without a degree.

Even if you are a great programmer you will most likely not even get called back without a 4 year degree. The only exceptions to that would be if you created something impressive or had work experience.

 

[NanoStuff]

Bullshit and bullshit. If you learn how to program web applications well you will have no difficulty landing a job regardless of your 'degree'. Unless by web developement you're referring to HTML, in which case, don't count on it. Web development and computer programming are one and the same.

As for non-web programming, that depends on what you intend to do. In most cases if you can impress with your qualifications they won't even ask for a 'degree'. I have doubts whether the two above do either of those things. No good programmer I've met was in that state of mind.

 

[oznerol]

Originally posted by: Pacemaker

Originally posted by: tfinch2
It's going to be easier to get a job in any type of programming if you have a bachelors in CS.

Unless you are a great programmer, I don't see many openings in any type of programming without a degree.

Even if you are a great programmer you will most likely not even get called back without a 4 year degree. The only exceptions to that would be if you created something impressive or had work experience.

That's just simply not true. Granted, a degree is definitely to your advantage, but it by no means closes the door entirely.

Honestly I think the two biggest questions are your location and your age. From my experience, web developers are in the highest demand in large cities - NY is what I'm most familiar with. Most web programmers are employed by marketing/advertising agencies who are hired by larger corporations to develop a web base.

As far as the work environment for this kind of job, it's typically fairly laid back - the developers are usually tech guys, whereas the designers are more of the stuck up, artsy kind you are looking to avoid.

Outside of web development, software engineers are needed just about everywhere. If you are limited by location, this would be a good route to take. Without a 4-year degree, chances are you would need to start in testing or quality control. Basically doing mundane tasks to test hardware, software, whatever. If the company has competent management and allows employees to move from one department to another, you could then continue to pursue software development as your studies progress.

Again, this is just from my personal experience. A 2-year degree will definitely limit you as far as initial interviews go, and I would recommend a 4-year college if you have the means to do so. If that is not an option, however, you can still work to get your foot in the door and succeed so long as you are a dedicated worker.

:beer:

Edit: And as NanoStuff mentioned - HTML isn't going to get you very far. I would suggest working toward Java as a base, and PHP if you are looking to move into web development.

 

[Kalmah]

Thanks for all the info. I appreciate it.

Just to show, I'll list the course for web development.

Introduction to Microcomputers
Operating Systems Concepts
OR
PC Operating Systems Concepts
Program Design and Development
Computer Concepts
Networking Fundamentals
HTML Fundamentals
Web Site Design Tools
Web Graphics and Multimedia
Design Methodology
Java Script Fundamentals
Fundamentals of CGI using PERL
Database Connectivity
E-Commerce Concepts
Elective(s)


As you can see, it does go a bit further than just HTML. But it seems to skim on the more advanced stuff.

My take on the web development, is that not only would it allow me to be a web developer, but I would also be working with graphics, media, advertising... which could open the door to other areas. (advertising does interest me for some strange reason)

I am about a 45 minute drive east of Atlanta. Kind of in a rural area.. but fairly close to some decent sized cities.

Now, the computer programming course seems to focus mostly on java. But does cover several other languages.

I am 24. I had a late start on getting my feet wet with schooling. I went into a restaurant business with my family for a couple years before it went under. And now I'm left hanging out to dry. heh

I appreciate it.

 

[tfinch2]

Originally posted by: NanoStuff
Bullshit and bullshit. If you learn how to program web applications well you will have no difficulty landing a job regardless of your 'degree'. Unless by web developement you're referring to HTML, in which case, don't count on it. Web development and computer programming are one and the same.

As for non-web programming, that depends on what you intend to do. In most cases if you can impress with your qualifications they won't even ask for a 'degree'. I have doubts whether the two above do either of those things. No good programmer I've met was in that state of mind.

You just basically agreed with my post, but you called it bullshit...

 

[NanoStuff]

I've found (largely from experience with friends) that the typical college curriculum for programming is ridiculously out of date, much like the teachers. So if you feel you should take college, you'd do yourself well to take up a good, fairly recent book on the subject. You might be surprised how incompetent your course is compared to a good book. If they try and teach you WYSIWYG, run, don't walk.

If you're looking at web design, I would strongly recommend starting with Ruby for the server-side language. It's going to be very popular in the coming years after the new interpreter is released, and it's a pleasure to work with.

 

[NanoStuff]

Originally posted by: tfinch2

Originally posted by: NanoStuff
Bullshit and bullshit. If you learn how to program web applications well you will have no difficulty landing a job regardless of your 'degree'. Unless by web developement you're referring to HTML, in which case, don't count on it. Web development and computer programming are one and the same.

As for non-web programming, that depends on what you intend to do. In most cases if you can impress with your qualifications they won't even ask for a 'degree'. I have doubts whether the two above do either of those things. No good programmer I've met was in that state of mind.

You just basically agreed with my post, but you called it bullshit...

I'm not so sure, it seemed like you pretty much said a 'degree' was necessary .

 

[tfinch2]

Originally posted by: NanoStuff

Originally posted by: tfinch2

Originally posted by: NanoStuff
Bullshit and bullshit. If you learn how to program web applications well you will have no difficulty landing a job regardless of your 'degree'. Unless by web developement you're referring to HTML, in which case, don't count on it. Web development and computer programming are one and the same.

As for non-web programming, that depends on what you intend to do. In most cases if you can impress with your qualifications they won't even ask for a 'degree'. I have doubts whether the two above do either of those things. No good programmer I've met was in that state of mind.

You just basically agreed with my post, but you called it bullshit...

I'm not so sure, it seemed like you pretty much said a 'degree' was necessary .

No I didn't. I said a degree is necessary unless you're good at what you want to do. Experience is implied because that's really the only way to get good at something.

 

[oznerol]

Originally posted by: NanoStuff
I've found (largely from experience with friends) that the typical college curriculum for programming is ridiculously out of date, much like the teachers. So if you feel you should take college, you'd do yourself well to take up a good, fairly recent book on the subject. You might be surprised how incompetent your course is compared to a good book. If they try and teach you WYSIWYG, run, not walk.

If you're looking at web design, I would strongly recommend starting with Ruby for the server-side language. It's going to be very popular in the coming years after the new interpreter is released, and it's a pleasure to work with.

I very much agree with this. However, I've found that the purpose of college-level programming courses is not to force you to learn a language - it is to teach you how to program. For me, once you learn one language well, be it Java, C, C++, Assembly or whatever, you can easily pick up and learn another one. The fundamental programming concepts are the same regardless of the language.

It seems you are confused between web design and programming. From my experience, if you wish to work with the design and graphics aspect of development - then less programming and more art concepts are required. Most people employed at those positions are of the "trendy" variety. If you wish to take a design concept and code it into a reality, then definitely take the programming route - Ruby is a good suggestion, and familiarity with it will look good on a resume, but I wouldn't recommend it as a foundation to your programming studies.

This is a stretch, but I can't stress enough how greatly Flash animators are in demand. If you are relatively artistic, or have an eye for design, I would highly recommend learning Flash. If you are even moderately qualified at it, a company will employ you regardless of your degree.

If you are interested in the advertising/marketing aspect of it all, I would suggest scrapping the community college programming courses and look into business courses. Get a associates degree in business all while teaching yourself programming. That would make you the most marketable candidate and most likely to give you more options when looking for a job.

 

[Kalmah]

Thanks again for the more replies.

Yeah, I actually tinkered with flash for quite a while. I am able to make a basic webpage with it. (as well as made a series of cartoons) I'm not very artistic though. I can design templates and designs, but I can't necessarily draw or make a good looking animation. I wrote all the music and did the voice acting and sound affects myself though.

I will look into those business courses. Thanks for the suggestion. Right now I'm pretty much open to anything.

My future mother-in-law is a programmer for CVC in Atlanta. And her son is a self-taught programmer. (somehow he made his way into game development) So I don't believe it's impossible to be a programmer and not go to school.. but I'm going to assume that he is just really good. While I can't really write much of a program for anything right now. I just kind of have a basic understanding of it as I've read through programming books in the past.. but never really applied myself to them.

Any more feedback is appreciated.

 

[NanoStuff]

Ruby is a good suggestion, and familiarity with it will look good on a resume, but I wouldn't recommend it as a foundation to your programming studies.

If you intend to go web development, learning C might be a big waste of time. Learning low-level programming is certainly not the necessity it was 20 years ago, there's just too much out there now for a newbie to try and grasp it all. So I would say to learn the programming language you intend to work with first, and if you have the time and courage later, dig lower, even to fundamental computer theory.

 

[Descartes]

Originally posted by: Kalmah
Thanks again for the more replies.

Yeah, I actually tinkered with flash for quite a while. I am able to make a basic webpage with it. (as well as made a series of cartoons) I'm not very artistic though. I can design templates and designs, but I can't necessarily draw or make a good looking animation. I wrote all the music and did the voice acting and sound affects myself though.

I will look into those business courses. Thanks for the suggestion. Right now I'm pretty much open to anything.

My future mother-in-law is a programmer for CVC in Atlanta. And her son is a self-taught programmer. (somehow he made his way into game development) So I don't believe it's impossible to be a programmer and not go to school.. but I'm going to assume that he is just really good. While I can't really write much of a program for anything right now. I just kind of have a basic understanding of it as I've read through programming books in the past.. but never really applied myself to them.

Any more feedback is appreciated.

You'd be surprised to learn how many developers are without degrees, many of which are in top-level technical positions. Game development is a bit of a niche, so if you can produce they don't really care where you went to school. I'm sure there are exceptions though.

A degree will always help, but you're going to need a lot more than the degree to be successful. If you can't produce, you'll be relegated to cubicle dwelling for the duration of your career. Focus on being comprehensive (i.e. offer more than technical ability) and the sky is the limit.

 

[scorp00]

I'd say go with computer programming because it will possibly open up more jobs. If you learn java, there are a lot of web development positions that just want someone who knows java. I only had 2 classes in java and here I am programming web pages(javascript embedded into jsp's) when needed. I got a Computer Engineering degree btw.

Oh and work enviroment, conversations are usually computers/video games/new tech.