Carbon Capture and Storage could remove 1 ton per day

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
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www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: 351Cleveland
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=16822

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=23547

http://www.greenpeace.org/inte...s/reports/CCS-briefing

New news... old news... I searched, but I didnt find it.

I have no idea why anyone would oppose this... even if you dont believe in man-made global warming, this cant be a bad thing can it?

Because it keeps the fossil fuel train going when we should be on clean energy.

What oil company is paying you to be their PR spokesperson?
 

herm0016

Diamond Member
Feb 26, 2005
8,516
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we can reduce pollution for the short term and come up with something to replace fossil fuels in the long term. I don't understand there conclusions either. just like drilling, why not drill now and get the oil, lower prices a little, thus helping the economy a bit. and still invest in other tech to get rid of oil.
Only an idiot will oppose getting rid of oil as our main fuel source, but we all know that is not going to happen overnight and its going to take better tech.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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You provide links and have no idea why people would oppose it?:

Greenpease says:

Given the current uncertainties surrounding the effectiveness, regulatory, liability and environmental impacts of CCS, Greenpeace is opposed to the application of CCS to coal-fired power stations as a means to combat climate change.

The pursuit of CCS as a 'solution' is unwise given its lack of technological maturity and the absence of commercial viability. The construction of 'capture ready' power plants places hope in an end-of-pipe solution that may or may not be realised in time to effectively reduce CO2 emissions from the power sector.

The Daily Policy Digest says:

While some see the scrubber as an efficient and economical way to reduce atmospheric carbon dioxide, many environmentalists oppose the technology because it allows people to use fossil fuels and emit carbon in the first place.

And:

Environmental activist groups such as Greenpeace have consistently opposed similar technologies, such as carbon capture and sequestration, because they do not address what they see as the root of the problem, says the Heartland Institute.

"This is just one more piece of evidence that environmentalists aren't concerned about solving a problem," said Sterling Burnett, a senior fellow with the National Center for Policy Analysis. "Every problem, as they see it, is one way to restrict people's lifestyles, and if you come up with a technological fix that can solve a problem but doesn't require sacrifice and lets us go about our business the way we were before, they're not happy about it, even if it solves the problem."

Heartland, a libertarian outfit, echoes some points and adds others:

analysts agreed with the scientists, rather than the protesters.

"If CO2 emission reduction is a goal, then investigating and investing in strategies for capitalizing on our existing infrastructure efficiently and effectively makes more sense than throwing away reasonable options simply because they don't align with a political philosophy about our energy economy," said Amy Kaleita, an environmental policy fellow at the Pacific Research Institute.

"This is just one more piece of evidence that environmentalists aren't concerned about solving a problem," said Sterling Burnett, a senior fellow at the National Center for Policy Analysis. "Every problem, as they see it, is one way to restrict people's lifestyles, and if you come up with a technological fix that can solve a problem but doesn't require sacrifice and lets us go about our business the way we were before, they're not happy about it, even if it solves the problem.

"Now, I don't know about whether this technology will solve global warming," said Burnett, "but let's say it is cost-effective, and let's assume for the sake of argument that global warming is a real, serious problem that needs to be solved. Then I would argue that this technology may be a good thing."


Ultimate Goal at Issue

"I think the question is, what is the objective?" asked Erin Baker, an assistant professor at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, in an interview for this article. "For me, the objective is reducing the harmful effects of climate change. It is going to be extremely challenging to reduce CO2 levels to the point where we can stabilize the stock of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere at, say, 550 ppm (parts per million), and this is only a mild goal.

"Most environmentalists would like to see a much more stringent goal," Baker added. "If we want to have a reasonable chance of achieving this goal, then we need to consider a portfolio of technologies in order to achieve this. This means keeping CCS (carbon capture and storage), nuclear, and biofuels, for instance, on the table.

"If we have some kind of major breakthrough in solar technologies and electricity storage technologies, then we won't need to rely so heavily on these other technologies. But if we don't have any breakthroughs and we refuse to use our full arsenal, we will most likely fail to combat climate change and cause economic hardships, especially for the most vulnerable.

"I am not necessarily advocating a full-scale implementation of any of these technologies, but rather that we continue to [research and develop] a wide range of technologies, and not flat-out reject any possibilities," Baker said.

====================

I would say the issue is basically do we get off a problem source of energy, coal in particular here, and get on to what is basically infinitely renewable, solar wind geothermal, etc. There are folk who live from coal and those who want alternative because it is ultimately more environmentally friendly. Money and philosophy are both involved and so the issue is political. The left and the right will find here a natural divide, I think.



 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Originally posted by: herm0016
we can reduce pollution for the short term and come up with something to replace fossil fuels in the long term. I don't understand there conclusions either. just like drilling, why not drill now and get the oil, lower prices a little, thus helping the economy a bit. and still invest in other tech to get rid of oil.
Only an idiot will oppose getting rid of oil as our main fuel source, but we all know that is not going to happen overnight and its going to take better tech.

Only an idiot would suggest there is anybody who is going to take us off oil overnight. And the issue here is coal.
 

badnewcastle

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2004
1,016
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0
Originally posted by: herm0016
we can reduce pollution for the short term and come up with something to replace fossil fuels in the long term. I don't understand there conclusions either. just like drilling, why not drill now and get the oil, lower prices a little, thus helping the economy a bit. and still invest in other tech to get rid of oil.
Only an idiot will oppose getting rid of oil as our main fuel source, but we all know that is not going to happen overnight and its going to take better tech.

Herm, I with you.:thumbsup:

Just know that common sense as you've pointed out, does not come easy to others. Some people will always have their heads up their @ss3s!
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
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Carbon sequestration is a cheap, easy, and reliable way to decrease CO2 emissions. However, it is not yet well understood how much loading the aquifers can handle, so it can't be implemented on a broad scale yet. This would be very easy to determine, except knuckle draggers blocked the minimal funding that would have been required to figure it out. Technology cannot become mature unless it's researched, so denouncing something because it's not mature is a sure way to ensure that it never does reach maturity.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,744
6,761
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Originally posted by: badnewcastle
Originally posted by: herm0016
we can reduce pollution for the short term and come up with something to replace fossil fuels in the long term. I don't understand there conclusions either. just like drilling, why not drill now and get the oil, lower prices a little, thus helping the economy a bit. and still invest in other tech to get rid of oil.
Only an idiot will oppose getting rid of oil as our main fuel source, but we all know that is not going to happen overnight and its going to take better tech.

Herm, I with you.:thumbsup:

Just know that common sense as you've pointed out, does not come easy to others. Some people will always have their heads up their @ss3s!

Common sense? Where? This is a political issue with money and careers involved. The status quo isn't going to make way for alternatives at any point where it makes common sense. We will die from CO2 before they willingly change. One can see the common sense in the typical Pavlovian demonetization of environmentalists as folk who want us all to return to the trees. Do not hear what they say or pay any attention to their warnings because they want to take away your SUV and hot tub. They want you to live in rags in the Deli dump.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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I don't get it...I thought CO2 was a big problem of epic proportions and we need to do something about it immediately or face certain doom. Then along comes CO2 scrubbers which would significantly reduce coal-fired power plant CO2 emissions and the environmental groups object. WTF?

Somebody please enlighten me...what am I missing here?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,744
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Carbon sequestration is a cheap, easy, and reliable way to decrease CO2 emissions. However, it is not yet well understood how much loading the aquifers can handle, so it can't be implemented on a broad scale yet. This would be very easy to determine, except knuckle draggers blocked the minimal funding that would have been required to figure it out. Technology cannot become mature unless it's researched, so denouncing something because it's not mature is a sure way to ensure that it never does reach maturity.

Isn't it as much a threat to knuckle drillers? We can make oil and gas from CO2 and algae and sun, no? The problem is that if we just use the gas we will essentially be recycling and doing nothing to reduce the CO2 we have already produced. That may or may not be a problem since we don't fully understand our world.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
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This attitude from the environmentalists is to use an old phrase 'cut off your nose to spite yourself'.

It doesn't matter what solutions we come up with to better protect the environment. Enviro-whackos want only to have man removed from impact on the environment. Quite frankly, if and when a proposal comes out to install a 250,000 acre solar farm, the first in line opposing will be environemntalists because it will:

1. be an eysore
2. cover natural desert land
3. destroy sensitive plants
4. threaten a species
5. all of the above

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,744
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Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
I don't get it...I thought CO2 was a big problem of epic proportions and we need to do something about it immediately or face certain doom. Then along comes CO2 scrubbers which would significantly reduce coal-fired power plant CO2 emissions and the environmental groups object. WTF?

Somebody please enlighten me...what am I missing here?

Quite a lot actually.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
I don't get it...I thought CO2 was a big problem of epic proportions and we need to do something about it immediately or face certain doom. Then along comes CO2 scrubbers which would significantly reduce coal-fired power plant CO2 emissions and the environmental groups object. WTF?

Somebody please enlighten me...what am I missing here?

Quite a lot actually.

And that is???
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
I don't get it...I thought CO2 was a big problem of epic proportions and we need to do something about it immediately or face certain doom. Then along comes CO2 scrubbers which would significantly reduce coal-fired power plant CO2 emissions and the environmental groups object. WTF?

Somebody please enlighten me...what am I missing here?

Quite a lot actually.

Coming from you...I'll take that as a testament to my sanity.

 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
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Lol.

So we should move from fossil fuels by using new technology to get new energy sources, but when those new technologies also allow use to use the fossil fuel sources in a less harmfull way while working on new energy sources that's a bad thing. This ladies and gentlement is priceless.
 

Slick5150

Diamond Member
Nov 10, 2001
8,760
3
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Because this is more or less a red herring from the coal industry who want to keep using coal for power plants (not just existing ones. New plants). I have no disagreement that removing CO2 from emissions is a good thing, but coal plants emit MUCH more than just CO2. Their bigger concern is Mercury emissions, which have been linked to decreased IQ for people living near them, they contaminate nearby waters which then contaminate the fish in those waters. Its nasty stuff.

 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
Originally posted by: Slick5150
Because this is more or less a red herring from the coal industry who want to keep using coal for power plants (not just existing ones. New plants). I have no disagreement that removing CO2 from emissions is a good thing, but coal plants emit MUCH more than just CO2. Their bigger concern is Mercury emissions, which have been linked to decreased IQ for people living near them, they contaminate nearby waters which then contaminate the fish in those waters. Its nasty stuff.

That must be what happened to the environmentalists. Poor people, breathing in all that mercury made them irrational.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,744
6,761
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Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
I don't get it...I thought CO2 was a big problem of epic proportions and we need to do something about it immediately or face certain doom. Then along comes CO2 scrubbers which would significantly reduce coal-fired power plant CO2 emissions and the environmental groups object. WTF?

Somebody please enlighten me...what am I missing here?

Quite a lot actually.

And that is???

The entire first part of the thread where all sorts of reasons were given.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,744
6,761
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Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: Slick5150
Because this is more or less a red herring from the coal industry who want to keep using coal for power plants (not just existing ones. New plants). I have no disagreement that removing CO2 from emissions is a good thing, but coal plants emit MUCH more than just CO2. Their bigger concern is Mercury emissions, which have been linked to decreased IQ for people living near them, they contaminate nearby waters which then contaminate the fish in those waters. Its nasty stuff.

That must be what happened to the environmentalists. Poor people, breathing in all that mercury made them irrational.

You might want to check the IQ level of YOUR post.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
I don't get it...I thought CO2 was a big problem of epic proportions and we need to do something about it immediately or face certain doom. Then along comes CO2 scrubbers which would significantly reduce coal-fired power plant CO2 emissions and the environmental groups object. WTF?

Somebody please enlighten me...what am I missing here?

Quite a lot actually.

And that is???

The entire first part of the thread where all sorts of reasons were given.

Well, all I saw were enviro-whackos opposed to any form of cleaning up the environment from carbon generating plants.

Why would we not want to clean up even more than we have already done coal fired plants? Seems a no-brainer to me.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
Does anyone actually read these misleading posts? Or do you just believe if what a "headline" says if there is a link?
I read the links. Who opposes the co2 scrubbers?

Environmental activist groups such as Greenpeace have consistently opposed similar technologies, such as carbon capture and sequestration, because they do not address what they see as the root of the problem.

On May 5, for example, the activist groups Students Promoting Environmental Action and Save Our Cumberland Mountains demonstrated in Knoxville, Tennessee against carbon sequestration. Repeatedly citing a Greenpeace position paper, they argued eliminating the use of coal, not reducing atmospheric CO2, should be society's primary goal.

"Our position is we need to start phasing out coal as soon as possible," said Cathie Bird of Save Our Cumberland Mountains.

"Carbon capture and storage does not make coal clean," read a banner hoisted by protesters.

So it is the Students Promoting Environmental Action and Save Our Cumberland Mountains group that opposed this. The article mentions no other groups.
Though the article does mention "a Greenpeace position paper, they argued eliminating the use of coal, not reducing atmospheric CO2, should be society's primary goal."
So we don't know what Greenpeace's position is on this.

Why this thread, which is pure propaganda and has a misleading title, is allowed to continue is beyond me.


 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,744
6,761
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Originally posted by: lupi
Lol.

So we should move from fossil fuels by using new technology to get new energy sources, but when those new technologies also allow use to use the fossil fuel sources in a less harmfull way while working on new energy sources that's a bad thing. This ladies and gentlement is priceless.

The quality of your criticism is pretty priceless too. Let's look at what Greenpeace said:

"Given the current uncertainties surrounding the effectiveness, regulatory, liability and environmental impacts of CCS, Greenpeace is opposed to the application of CCS to coal-fired power stations as a means to combat climate change."

Is this true? If it is, how about we concretize the regulations, establish the liabilities and do the impact analysis.

"The pursuit of CCS as a 'solution' is unwise given its lack of technological maturity and the absence of commercial viability. The construction of 'capture ready' power plants places hope in an end-of-pipe solution that may or may not be realised in time to effectively reduce CO2 emissions from the power sector."

Who is pursuing CCS which is experimental, as a solution? It is being researched as a possible solution. This is utter nonsense as CycloWizard said. There are also enormous potentials for commercial viability. Does anybody think we are seriously going to stop burning coal or that China and India will? What the fuck does hope have to do with this. Like the hopeless are going to stop burning coal. Hehe, Greenpeace is grasping at straws, no?

One can do more than say priceless, one can argue a case.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,744
6,761
126
Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
I don't get it...I thought CO2 was a big problem of epic proportions and we need to do something about it immediately or face certain doom. Then along comes CO2 scrubbers which would significantly reduce coal-fired power plant CO2 emissions and the environmental groups object. WTF?

Somebody please enlighten me...what am I missing here?

Quite a lot actually.

And that is???

The entire first part of the thread where all sorts of reasons were given.

Well, all I saw were enviro-whackos opposed to any form of cleaning up the environment from carbon generating plants.

Why would we not want to clean up even more than we have already done coal fired plants? Seems a no-brainer to me.

The answers are obvious and stated. For one thing it offers hope to coal. Especially if can postpone the important task of developing true renewable resources that don't burn carbon.

What we have here is people reacting with whatever program they bring to the table when in fact this is a scientific issue the ramifications of which need to be looked at from many perspectives. To do that you have to hear all points of view not react like a fucking programmed robot.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,744
6,761
126
Originally posted by: techs
Does anyone actually read these misleading posts? Or do you just believe if what a "headline" says if there is a link?
I read the links. Who opposes the co2 scrubbers?

Environmental activist groups such as Greenpeace have consistently opposed similar technologies, such as carbon capture and sequestration, because they do not address what they see as the root of the problem.

On May 5, for example, the activist groups Students Promoting Environmental Action and Save Our Cumberland Mountains demonstrated in Knoxville, Tennessee against carbon sequestration. Repeatedly citing a Greenpeace position paper, they argued eliminating the use of coal, not reducing atmospheric CO2, should be society's primary goal.

"Our position is we need to start phasing out coal as soon as possible," said Cathie Bird of Save Our Cumberland Mountains.

"Carbon capture and storage does not make coal clean," read a banner hoisted by protesters.

So it is the Students Promoting Environmental Action and Save Our Cumberland Mountains group that opposed this. The article mentions no other groups.
Though the article does mention "a Greenpeace position paper, they argued eliminating the use of coal, not reducing atmospheric CO2, should be society's primary goal."
So we don't know what Greenpeace's position is on this.

Why this thread, which is pure propaganda and has a misleading title, is allowed to continue is beyond me.

Folk are brain dead. They are partisan reaction machines. They see environmentalist or coal and explode like trained monkeys.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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IOW, the 'stop using coal' environmentalists are against this, not the 'stop global warming' environmentalists.

Unfortunately, the 'ditto' crowd sees the world only in terms of 'us and them,' and does not recognize that 'them' consists of many disparate groups.