Car won't start

[flyboy84]

Pardon my newbness, but I just drive my car from point A to B, never had a serious problem with the car before.

Car: 2004 Honda Civic EX Automatic Sedan

I parked the car on Saturday, and it would not start up this morning. Temperatures got cold in that period, but not extreme (+10F at the worst?) Temperature now is about freezing.

The car will not start. If I move the key to the "on" position, I do not get any dashboard lights, etc. Also, headlights will not turn on at all, which I believe is independent of ignition state. When I try to start the ignition, there is no sound at all.

My co-workers that I called said it sounds like there is a bad connection somewhere, as it is unlikely the battery would just up and quit like that.

Any opinions?

Thanks!

 

[Vetterin]

It is likely the battery just up and quit. Try a simple jump and find out for sure.

 

[LTC8K6]

If it's on it's original battery, it's past time for a new one.

 

[simonizor]

Uh, try jumping it? The most obvious solution should always be tried first, even if it's not the most likely one.

 

[LTC8K6]

Yes, but if it's the original battery, he needs a new one anyway. It's an ex-battery...

 

[simonizor]

Yes, but if it's the original battery, he needs a new one anyway. It's an ex-battery...

That's true, but it's kind of lazy to go asking for help when you haven't even tried the easiest fix.

 

[KIAman]

Occam's razor. Battery.

 

[Gibson486]

Jump car, go to Autozone or whatever auto parts store is near you, buy new battery, Replace.

BTW 10F is more than cold enough to kill an aged battery. My battery in my Mazda only lasted 3.5 years, which is the low end of the avg. I found out it was dead when it was 2 F out. It started when it's 20F, but anything below that, it needed a jump.

And your coworker is wrong. Your battery can just quit like that.

 

[LTC8K6]

That's true, but it's kind of lazy to go asking for help when you haven't even tried the easiest fix.

That is also true, however, one should not attempt to jump a frozen battery, IIRC...

 

[Gibson486]

That is also true, however, one should not attempt to jump a frozen battery, IIRC...

batteries do not freeze at 0 F. At least not the ones they sell in areas that reach those temps.

 

[desy]

A battery will freeze at 0F if its dead, fully charged is one of the tings keeping it from freezing

 

[LTC8K6]

A battery will freeze at 0F if its dead, fully charged is one of the tings keeping it from freezing

Yes, SOC basically determines it's freeze point. A dead battery is far more likely to be frozen when the temps get very low.

 

[ShawnD1]

That is also true, however, one should not attempt to jump a frozen battery, IIRC...

It's worth noting that you shouldn't even connect a dead battery to a healthy battery. The healthy battery can put out hundreds of amps if given the opportunity, and you're not entirely sure that the dead battery is or is not internally shorted.

Think back to when you're a kid screwing with your dad's battery charger. There's a 2 amp charge, 10 amp quick charge, and a 75 amp "boost" setting. Your dad probably told you never to "boost" a dead battery because it will blow up.

 

[Pulsar]

It's worth noting that you shouldn't even connect a dead battery to a healthy battery. The healthy battery can put out hundreds of amps if given the opportunity, and you're not entirely sure that the dead battery is or is not internally shorted.

Think back to when you're a kid screwing with your dad's battery charger. There's a 2 amp charge, 10 amp quick charge, and a 75 amp "boost" setting. Your dad probably told you never to "boost" a dead battery because it will blow up.

That is not inaccurate.

When you jump start a car, the engine on the car should be running. That is because it takes hundreds of amps to run the starter motor on a car, and the car that is dead needs that amperage to start. The alternator plus the battery on the running car provide that power. Thus, if you are jumping a dead battery you absolutely use the 75 amp setting.

Perhaps what you meant to say is never CHARGE the battery using the 75 amp setting. Most chargers expensive enough to have a boost setting will also not allow you to charge with it anyway: most chargers aren't designed to provide those 75 amps for long periods of time anyway.

 

[ShawnD1]

Perhaps what you meant to say is never CHARGE the battery using the 75 amp setting. Most chargers expensive enough to have a boost setting will also not allow you to charge with it anyway: most chargers aren't designed to provide those 75 amps for long periods of time anyway.

The charger can put out 75 amps for a long time. 12 * 75 is only 900 watts (actually a bit higher since the charger is more like 14-15V). The electronics will get a bit warm though.

Cars that don't start are very rarely dead. The most common scenario is the lights turn on and the motor turns over a little, but it can't turn over fast enough to start the car. That kind of battery can be boosted because it's mostly charged and you know that it's not internally faulted since it's still providing power to lights and accessories.

Cars tend to charge batteries at a very high rate because of the nature of how cars are used. I bought a new battery yesterday and it took half a day of 1.5 amp trickle charging to bring it up to full. Cars don't run for half a day at a time, so they charge a lot faster than a trick charger will. Even my little compact car's alternator is rated for 90A, so it can easily put out 10 or 20 or 30 amps to charge the battery. If the car you're boosting has a totally dead battery that won't even turn on the accessory lights, the dead battery will draw a lot of current from both alternators as well as the healthy battery. Charging way too fast is what makes them dangerous.

You're saying you shouldn't charge it at 75A, but that's exactly what your car is going to do.

 

[ShawnD1]

While we're talking about frozen dead batteries, let's also mention alternators.

Assuming the completely dead battery does not explode when charged quickly, there is still a risk of damaging your alternator. My parents learned this one first hand when using an RV only once per year. The RV would sit in storage all year in a distant town, the batteries slowly draining, then they would fire it up and get ready to go camping. It has 2 large batteries in parallel, so it would always start fine, but the batteries are partially drained and need charging. The alternator would run balls to the wall to charge them, but on top of that the alternator is also powering the lights and all that other junk a motor vehicle typically has. Does your car have heated seats? Does it have rear window defrost? How powerful are the lights? Now imagine running all of those things at the same time while trying to charge 2 large batteries. Alternator = fucked. They blew through 2 stock alternators before upgrading to a high output alternator that was rated for something ridiculous like 300A. After that it never burned out again.

So how big is your car's alternator? Is it stock? Do you can think it can quick charge a dead battery and run all of the aux stuff and run the headlights and rear defroster without failing? It's possible that it can... if it has enough electronics to protect itself. If it doesn't have electronics and it just runs as hard as the load demands, then it will fail very quickly.

 

[LTC8K6]

The charger can put out 75 amps for a long time. 12 * 75 is only 900 watts (actually a bit higher since the charger is more like 14-15V). The electronics will get a bit warm though.

Cars that don't start are very rarely dead. The most common scenario is the lights turn on and the motor turns over a little, but it can't turn over fast enough to start the car. That kind of battery can be boosted because it's mostly charged and you know that it's not internally faulted since it's still providing power to lights and accessories.

Cars tend to charge batteries at a very high rate because of the nature of how cars are used. I bought a new battery yesterday and it took half a day of 1.5 amp trickle charging to bring it up to full. Cars don't run for half a day at a time, so they charge a lot faster than a trick charger will. Even my little compact car's alternator is rated for 90A, so it can easily put out 10 or 20 or 30 amps to charge the battery. If the car you're boosting has a totally dead battery that won't even turn on the accessory lights, the dead battery will draw a lot of current from both alternators as well as the healthy battery. Charging way too fast is what makes them dangerous.

You're saying you shouldn't charge it at 75A, but that's exactly what your car is going to do.

IIRC, the alternator does not charge the battery at a very high rate. If it did, a short drive would fully recharge a dead battery, and it doesn't. Short drives actually gradually discharge your battery.

The older generators charged the battery at higher rates, I believe, than modern alternators do.

 

[exdeath]

Id check connection to battery. Metal connectors expand (tighten) when hot and contract (loosen) when cold. If they are good, battery is dead. Unlikely to die all at once without prior signs of weakness; maybe lights were left on or something. Cold is a chemical battery's worst enemy.

 

[ShawnD1]

The older generators charged the battery at higher rates, I believe, than modern alternators do.

Does anyone have a rough estimate of when they started to control them better?

It's hard to tell when things cross over. I bought a $30 trickle charger yesterday because I didn't have one, and it is computer controlled. It will turn off when fully charged and it can be left connected to a battery for years at a time. My dad bought a charger about 5 years ago and even though it was a fairly good charger with a boost setting, it's still a manual charger without any automatic shut off. So as little as 5 years ago, not everything was computer controlled. That may also apply to cars. Maybe.


I remember my dad bitching about his GM cars chewing through alternators. Now that I think about it, it would make a lot of sense that it chewed through alternators because neither of my parents drove to work. They bus to work and only drove for things like shopping. Not keeping the battery topped up every day and only running the car for short periods of time would mean the batteries stay in more of a drained condition all the time. That means it would run the alternator a lot harder all the time..... :hmm:

OP's car is from 2004 and it's only a Civic. Some expensive car like an Lexus might be electronically controlled in 2004, but a Civic is a bit questionable.

Cold is a chemical battery's worst enemy.

Only if it freezes. Batteries tend to last longer in colder climates. People in southern states seem to change the batteries more often than they change transmission fluid. Up in Canada, it's assumed the batteries last a minimum of 5 years.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/01/technology/personaltech/01basics.html
(they self-drain faster when they are hotter)

 

[ShawnD1]

I was googling around for more information about alternators and I found this awesome picture. Apparently this is a real picture. Alternators you buy from the store actually have this sticker on them :awe:

In case the image doesn't load for some reason it says in all caps that alternators are not intended for charging dead batteries. If the battery's open circuit voltage is below 12.4V, charge the battery until it is a minimum of 12.4V. If your battery is 30 months old or older, it should be professionally tested or replaced before starting the car. Unless these procedures are followed, damage to the alternator may occur, which may void the warranty.

So basically you're not supposed to have a dead battery drawing from your alternator. That also means you should immediately disconnect the jumper cables after you give someone else a jump start. If you leave them hooked up, it means your alternator is trying to charge a dead battery, and that may damage your alternator.

If it's your car being jump started, it damn well better not be a completely dead battery. Too weak to start the car - that's fine. If it can't even light up your car interior lights, trying to charge that will ruin your alternator.

 

[fire400]

usually replace my batttery every year. won't risk a battery in negative degree weather in the 2nd winter.

spark plugs and spark plug wires. usually get the most premium spark plug wire set, personally, 'cuz I've seen too many fail several months later.

clean terminals, scrape off rust and use baking soda with wire brush.

start the car every single day, don't let it idle 16 to +24 hours, let it run 5-15 min. in the winter if you're not driving anywhere.

 

[simonizor]

usually replace my batttery every year. won't risk a battery in negative degree weather in the 2nd winter.

Unless you're draining your battery completely on a regular basis, you're waisting your money. A battery should last at least 3 years.

 

[ShawnD1]

usually replace my batttery every year. won't risk a battery in negative degree weather in the 2nd winter.

Do you at least buy good batteries? A new battery is still shit if you buy a shit one.

As stated earlier, I just bought me a new battery for my crayola. The absolute shittiest battery of this size sold at Walmart is 400 cold cranking amps for something like $60 CDN. The one I bought is 700 cold cranking amps and it was $90 CDN. Same exact battery size. If it gets really cold outside, I don't doubt for a second that some poor bastard with his brand new cheap battery won't be able to start the engine. It might be new and it might be fully charged, but crap is still crap.

If you're really that concerned about you or your wife being stranded, check out a booster kit. I've seen them as low as $40 at Walmart.

 

[exdeath]

I was googling around for more information about alternators and I found this awesome picture. Apparently this is a real picture. Alternators you buy from the store actually have this sticker on them :awe:

Not so much the alternator mechanically as the internal rectifier (diode cluster) soaking that much current for extended periods and burning.

 

[XZeroII]

usually replace my batttery every year. won't risk a battery in negative degree weather in the 2nd winter.

spark plugs and spark plug wires. usually get the most premium spark plug wire set, personally, 'cuz I've seen too many fail several months later.

clean terminals, scrape off rust and use baking soda with wire brush.

start the car every single day, don't let it idle 16 to +24 hours, let it run 5-15 min. in the winter if you're not driving anywhere.

Every year? That's insane. I'm still using the original battery in my 03 Grand AM and I live in WI where it rarely gets above freezing for a couple of months every year.