car not starting once in a while...

[T2urtle]

Got a 03 lancer with about 65k miles on it. We got a new battery installed about last year. And i did the timing belt on it at 60k last summer.

I haven't seen the car act up as its not my car personally. But this is the symptons i was given, sometimes it requires a slighly longer key turn to start up. Once a week on early morning start-up it will not start up the first time but it will on the 2nd one. Once it start it runs normally and everything is GREAT. So its obviously an starting ONLY issue.

I will run to see if there are any codes and etc.

Recently she told me there are some cases where the car wouldn't start when she tried twice but she stopped and waited 5 minutes and it started right up then. The car doesn't have a immbolizer or an alarm so its not cutting it off in that manner.

Is it just obvious that the starter is on it way out? Or could there be other possible reasons behind this. I'm asking because i have no problem replacing the starter but i dont think its 100% the reason.

Oh when she turns the key the car gives a responce of trying to start... so its not like the CLICK CLICK of a dead batt/ starter.

 

[KIAman]

Considering the car behaves normally once started and the engine is turning over correctly when starting, it doesn't sound like it could be a problem with spark or timing.

Intermittent issues, in my experience, always point to some electrical doo-hicky that broke broke.

I bet your car DOES have a immobilizer built into your key fob or a motion sensor inside your car. Read owners manual. If key fob, either replace batteries or get new key fob programmed. If sensor in the car, then get that doo-hicky replaced.

 

[T2urtle]

NO this car does not have a immbolizer.

i have the spare METAL only key and can start the car.

i've heard of cam/crank sensors getting dirty and causing no starts. and thats what i wanted to look. We had that fault when we replaced the battery about a year ago, cleared it and it never came back, the guy told me most likely due to low battery voltage, i didn't think much of it back never caused a problem and its been a year. Just wanted to throw out more ideas.


Yes its not really a air/fuel/spark issue because honestly i never knew there was a problem because i never saw her start up the car, when it runs it runs GREAT.

 

[Ronstang]

I have had similar issues with an Isuzu Trooper and it was the main relay. The one that turns the power on to the computer. In this vehicle the simple test to see if the ECU is getting power is if the check engine light comes on. If it doesn't it is either the relay, wiring, or ECU in the case of the Isuzu.

You could be having a similar issue with a relay but it could be a fuel pump relay or something else. Time to start eliminating possibilities. Takes time but it is the only way to isolate the issue.

 

[Rifter]

Could be the fuel pump relay, i had that issue with my CRX where it would intermittantly not start because the fuel relay was not turning on the fuel pump. It was bad solder joints in the relay causing the problem.

 

[T2urtle]

Time to start eliminating possibilities. Takes time but it is the only way to isolate the issue.

yea i know, the GF just wants me to throw a starter at it,. i wanted to just so then i can say well i did all i can. but thats really a waste of $100-150 but i think its small like a sensor or relay of some sort.

thing is i dont know how to go about this mistu... they seem to have things weird on these cars.

 

[Vette73]

I take it the starter is moving from what you say "the car gives a responce of trying to start". So it turns over but will not catch?

So does this only happen when it is cold? If so its probable a fuel issue. You want to check the fuel pump relay and the system that tells the fuel pump to turn on when cold(oil presuure switch etc...). You know the buzz you hear when you turn the key to on but don;t start in the morning. Sounds like it is not priming and the first try at srating is the prime. The 2nd is the start now.

 

[LTC8K6]

When it won't start, start tapping on stuff. Tap on the relay and fuse boxes under the hood, tap on the starter, etc. You may find it that way.

 

[AMCRambler]

Fuel pump relay would be my guess. If it starts to happen more regularly where you can reproduce it. Listen to see if the fuel pump kicks on when you turn the key on. If the fuel pump relay is acting up you won't hear the fuel pump kick on.

I had this on my Honda Accord. On hot days parked in the parking lot at work, I'd come out, get in the car and it wouldn't start. So I'd sit there for a while with the windows open and try it a couple of times. After about 10 minutes, it would fire right up. Either the relay was getting to hot or having power running to it warmed it and made the connections again. Once I swapped it out the problem was fixed.

 

[NutBucket]

When it doesn't start you should have her sniff the tailpipe and see if it it smells of gas. Might be the easiest way to diagnose a failing fuel pump relay.

 

[AMCRambler]

When it doesn't start you should have her sniff the tailpipe and see if it it smells of gas. Might be the easiest way to diagnose a failing fuel pump relay.

Did anybody else die laughing when you read this? Lol. That's quote worthy right there.

 

[NutBucket]

Yeah, I knew what I was typing. I figured what the hell, its monday morning and I need a laugh!

 

[T2urtle]

When it won't start, start tapping on stuff. Tap on the relay and fuse boxes under the hood, tap on the starter, etc. You may find it that way.

it doesn't occur often enough for me to be there to see it happen.

I want to say it ONLY happens when cold but honestly its been about 7 times it has happen and most times is early in the morning when she first starts the car. I told her to start taking notes and remembering conditions and noises and etc.

how would i test fuel pump relays. i thought those are either good or bad. a relay is a solid state part.

 

[LTC8K6]

A regular relay is not a solid state part at all, actually. It has a coil and moving contacts. Plus there are soldered connections in the relay itself and in the box.

Intermittent failures are often difficult to find. You just have to keep trying.

 

[Vette73]

Yep when I had my first car, and knew nothing about cars, I had the same type problem. In the morning, or after sitting for several hours, it would take a couple cranks to start. That problem made me learn about cars and become a auto-tech and even ran my own shop.
It turned out my fuel pump relay was not turning on the fuel pump when cold. So the secondary switch, oil pressure switch, was turning the fuel pump on after I cranked it long enough to get a little oil pressure and then the fuel pump kicked on to start the car. I took my car to everybody that would look at it, even the dealer, and nobody could find the problem. Again one of the reasons I started to work on cars.
So keep at it and I am sure you will find it. But also keep us updated.

 

[T2urtle]

well today was the FIRST time i saw something happen. its in the middle of the day. car was last one at 7am and i fired up the car at 3pm it sat outside in 60degrees chicago weather. It was for sure a longer crank then normal. I would way a normal crank is about 1.5 seconds untill you release the key and the car starting on all the cars i've ever owned. This one was about 3-3.5 seconds but it fired up.

honestly i do notice it being a little longer but my mom's 96 camry 4 banger has the same type of delay cranking and its been like that for 3 years nows. Still starts up every time.

i still keep forgetting to run to see if there are any CEL. Its not worth it to take it to someone and pay them 1.0 hour diag for " car operating in spec" type of deal. If i was the tech i would say the same thing.

So other then just throwing a fuel pump relay at this..

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

my money is on a bad connection. check the terminals and the battery cables.
you mention chicago so the cold weather, salt could lead to corrosion on the cable ends.

 

[T2urtle]

battery end and then the postitive to the starter? the any other areas? i'm most likely doing an oil change on it this weekend so i ahve time to look

 

[NutBucket]

Check the major grounds as well.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

yes, i've had this happen to me and it was the ground.

 

[T2urtle]

so did the oil change on it yesterday.

inspected battery with volt meter 12.4 engine off and 12.7 engine on. Cables were tight but i took them off and installed for the hell of it. I didn't see the starter but i didn't really look that hard, normally if i pull the intake pipe off i can see it but it wasn't the case for this one.

pulled codes, no CEL was one.

you guys said it might be fuel related, I saw long term fuel trims at +6.25. I dont know if thats really rich or just a bit rich or even normal for that matter.

On top of that i've told my GF now, if she can everytime she starts to car to just leave the key on for a couple of seconds before starting ( if it was a fuel priming issue not holding pressure while the car sits then the problem would be gone if she waits )

So pretty much i got nothing valuable out of the car yesterday, other then i need to do a VC gasket on it since there is nice leak... =(


oh you guys think it would make sense to take it to sears and run a starting/charging test on it? not sure the cost and etc.

 

[Vette73]

engine on. Do you mean running? 12.7v is low for a running car. Of course that would not cause the problem you are describing as a lot volatge usually means bad Alt and that would just kill the battery and not start again.

 

[T2urtle]

sorry i meant 14.7... everything seems to be decent. it hasn't been doing it lately. weather has been a LOT warmer now about +25 degrees from when i first posted.

 

[T2urtle]

so its been about a month now... car has fired up every single time.. kinda like its working nicely again..

also noted that driving pattern has been exactly the same, in distances, trips and times. but its been +20 to 40 degrees outside. I posted problems when we were in the 40-60 temps and now its 70-91.