Car doesn't seem as powerful anymore. Think it's a fuel filter issue?

fuzzybabybunny

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Jan 2, 2006
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UPDATE

Well, here's what the mechanic reported:

1. Fuel pressure is fine, so he doesn't think it's a fuel filter or fuel pump issue.

2. Spark plugs got replaced with stock plugs, probably Denko. Bosch plugs were soaking wet with un-ignited fuel.

3. He tried cleaning the MAF with the spray. No go. I actually didn't ask whether or not he tested it for the proper range of operation.

4. He's ordering a new MAF for $150.

Honestly, I can't tell whether it's affecting WOT. If it is, it's pretty slight. Maybe I'll take the car to a deserted road and do a couple of timed 0-60s. Back in the day it could do around 8.8s, which is peppy enough for me.

WOT UPDATE: took the car to a deserted road and got consistent 8.8s times, so WOT seems fine.

*************************

Took it to the mechanic. Right off the bat without looking at the car and going just from the problem description he said that it probably isn't a fuel filter issue.

After looking at the car, he said:

Engine is flooding. The engine codes point him to perhaps a mass airflow sensor problem. The Bosch Platinum spark plugs that I have in there are "absolutely good for nothing" because they don't allow gap adjustment (I put them in to replace my old plugs, but the problems below were still occurring). When he pulled them out they were soaking wet (with fuel I'm assuming).

So he wants to:

replace MAF
replace spark plugs with stock ones

Cost should be under $300.

Any comments?



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2000 Toyota Echo, 105K miles, stick shift

1. A year ago the check engine light went on and it says that the engine's running lean.

2. A half a year ago the car starts to take longer to start up. I have to hold down the ignition for a bit longer before the engine completely fires up.

3. At around the same time I've noticed that the engine sometimes seems to choke when I'm starting from a dead stop. Let off clutch, push in gas, the car starts moving, and the engine just chokes and the car stops accelerating. I push in the clutch to keep from stalling and try to pump the gas. It takes about two seconds for the engine to respond and to rev up again and then I get going. Kind of embarrassing at stop signs and intersections. Right now I tend to rev higher than normal at starts to prevent this situation from happening.

4. Today my car had kind of a hard time going up an incline from a dead stop. Normally I can easily just start going without rolling backwards at all, but today it was like the engine just didn't have the power to pull the car up. I would rev up to around 3.5K, slowly let off the clutch, but the revs would just start dipping down and the car wouldn't go up. I finally had to do something I never needed to do; engage the handbrake to keep myself from rolling backwards as I revved the engine really high and engaging the clutch just halfway to pull myself up.

I had a thread about #2 and people thought that it could be from a clogged fuel filter, which I've never had replaced. Could a clogged fuel filter cause 1, 3, and 4? FYI, #2 happens from both cold starts and warm starts.
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
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A clogged fuel filter or weak/dying fuel pump could indeed cause those sorts of issues.
 

fuzzybabybunny

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Originally posted by: jagec
A clogged fuel filter or weak/dying fuel pump could indeed cause those sorts of issues.

Okey dokey. Gonna get an appointment with the mechanic first thing on Monday.

Should I first replace the fuel filter, and if the problem persists, replace the fuel pump?

Would it cause the fuel mixture to read lean?
 

tfinch2

Lifer
Feb 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny
Originally posted by: jagec
A clogged fuel filter or weak/dying fuel pump could indeed cause those sorts of issues.

Okey dokey. Gonna get an appointment with the mechanic first thing on Monday.

Should I first replace the fuel filter, and if the problem persists, replace the fuel pump?

Would it cause the fuel mixture to read lean?

Just because a car is running lean, don't assume it has to be something wrong with the fuel system. There are many possibilities that could cause air-fuel mixture to be lean: vacuum leak, dirty airflow sensor, clogged air filter, clogged fuel filter, clogged injectors, etc, etc.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
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"1. A year ago the check engine light went on and it says that the engine's running lean."

That should have been attended to immediately. You don't want to run lean for any length of time.

The lean indication could indeed be caused by many things. You need to know what that check engine code was/is exactly.
 

PlasmaBomb

Lifer
Nov 19, 2004
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Problems at low revs could be related to the ignition system (distributer, HT leads, spark plugs etc.). It would be unusual for a car not to get enough fuel at idle. Is the engine rough? (just had this problem myself and searched a different forum, seems to have fixed the problem, its due a service in may anyway.)
 

fuzzybabybunny

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Originally posted by: LTC8K6
"1. A year ago the check engine light went on and it says that the engine's running lean."

That should have been attended to immediately. You don't want to run lean for any length of time.

The lean indication could indeed be caused by many things. You need to know what that check engine code was/is exactly.

I tried to get it attended to, but it turns out that it's probably not economical. Because there could be SO many reasons for a lean mix, after seeing the code both of the mechanics I went to said they didn't even want to deal with my car and the long debug process.
 

fuzzybabybunny

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Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb
Problems at low revs could be related to the ignition system (distributer, HT leads, spark plugs etc.). It would be unusual for a car not to get enough fuel at idle. Is the engine rough? (just had this problem myself and searched a different forum, seems to have fixed the problem, its due a service in may anyway.)

The engine isn't rough at all. Just seems low powered at the low end. Not sure about the high end. I also had my spark plugs replaced less than a year ago.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
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Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny
Originally posted by: jagec
A clogged fuel filter or weak/dying fuel pump could indeed cause those sorts of issues.

Okey dokey. Gonna get an appointment with the mechanic first thing on Monday. Good plan

Should I first replace the fuel filter, and if the problem persists, replace the fuel pump? Let the mechanic tell you what needs replacing. When you go in telling them what to replace, they're happy to oblige. If it doesn't fix the problem, well, that's not their problem. See where I'm heading on this?

Would it cause the fuel mixture to read lean? Lots and lots of things. The fuel filter and pump are good suggestions. Could be an intake manifold leak, loose throttle body, clogged injectors, to name a few. It may not be running lean at all. You could just have a bad oxygen sensor or sensors that are giving bad information to the computer. Let the mechanic decide what's wrong. Hint: If he says he doesn't want to deal with the debug process, he does not have the right equipment and you are taking it to the wrong place.

 

T2urtle

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2004
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do EVERYTHING YOURSELF.

a MAF normally requires 2 bolts and 2 clamps. fairly easy for anyone to do. I would look into replacing the air filter as well ONLY because changing the MAF you most likely have to unclip the air box and expose the air filter as well.

the spark plugs i would get some Denso/ NGK plugs. I would get the copper ones (20k miles and cost 1.99$ each ) but you can get platinums ( 60k or so and maybe 5-7$ )


I do agree with the tech. bosch platinums are good for nothing plugs. toyota's come with Denso OEM i think or NGK and thats what should be used in them. Not american or german designed plugs. Hell not ever german cars use BOSCH, I work on VW's and never put in BOSCH at all. NGK all the way.
 

BlackTigers

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2006
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Yup, that's all work that can be done yourself in an hour in the driveway.

And according to this it should be a relatively easy fix. Two screws, and they even took the time to put the thing in an accessible place!
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
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At least verify fuel pressure and confirm that the fuel system is ok. Takes all of 5 minutes with a $15 test gauge.

Could be as simple as a lose/dirty MAF connection, vacuum leak, PCV or idle air problem, O2 sensor, etc. I can't see a MAF meter being faulty (other than being dirty) in a year 2000 car, but you never know.

Do you have any problems with wide open throttle acceleration or only at steady state cruise/idle speeds? If it's the MAF it will generally affect the vehicle over it's entire operating range, and it can fall back all or nothing to a backup table, and again, affect performance over the entire operating rang (ie: limp mode with a check engine light for MAF error). If it's only a problem under certain conditions, I'd attribute the problem to a vacuum leak or o2 sensor.

Shop should be able to test the MAF output for proper range of operation before replacing it, it's a fairly expensive part. If it's in the proper output range and fuel pressure is fine, and the car is still running lean, you have another problem. Make sure you only have to pay for what fixes the problem, and that you don't just play guess and check and throw money at working parts until the problem goes away.
 

Erock

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Dec 1, 2007
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My 2003 corolla LE was running rough not 2 months ago and so I took it in and they cleaned up the oxygen sensor and readjusted my engine idle speed and now it runs great!
 

alpineranger

Senior member
Feb 3, 2001
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I'd say remove and clean the MAF sensor (get an aerosol can of TB cleaner at the auto parts store for this), and replace the o2 sensor and spark plugs (ngk is good, as people have said). You can do all of this yourself easily and cheaply (~$50). If it still isn't working then you can go ahead and mess with the fuel system, but if the o2 sensor is working the computer should compensate for minor problems with fuel pressure.
 

sindows

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2005
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I don't know the answer to your question but how can you tell a car is losing power when it didn't have any in the first place? :p

I kid I kid

Its nice to know that not everyone needs 200+hp to get to the grocery store and safely merge onto the highway...
 

T2urtle

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2004
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so pretty much as far as your concern, the car runs right? now back to the 40 mpg that little car gets.

I think most of the was due to the wrong plugs being in there. The wrong plugs can mean its not firing correctly/full/ on time. therefore it could of resulted in random misfires ( car shaking a lot, lack of power).

i've NEVER found the MAF cleaner to ever work. IF you guys know what the sensor looks like you will think the say i do and say screw the MAF cleaner stuff. The MAF sensor itself is wire pretty much thinner then fishing wire and the length of it is about a couple of cm. the cleaner is more or less a can of compressed air. now when you spray that to something as thin as the sensor wire. It can completely break off. Now i've used it on known faulty MAF to see if it can bring it back to life and its never worked. 4 diffrent MAF and 4 diffrent cars.
 

fuzzybabybunny

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Jan 2, 2006
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Originally posted by: T2urtle
so pretty much as far as your concern, the car runs right? now back to the 40 mpg that little car gets.

I think most of the was due to the wrong plugs being in there. The wrong plugs can mean its not firing correctly/full/ on time. therefore it could of resulted in random misfires ( car shaking a lot, lack of power).

i've NEVER found the MAF cleaner to ever work. IF you guys know what the sensor looks like you will think the say i do and say screw the MAF cleaner stuff. The MAF sensor itself is wire pretty much thinner then fishing wire and the length of it is about a couple of cm. the cleaner is more or less a can of compressed air. now when you spray that to something as thin as the sensor wire. It can completely break off. Now i've used it on known faulty MAF to see if it can bring it back to life and its never worked. 4 diffrent MAF and 4 diffrent cars.

I don't think that just because WOT is fine doesn't mean that the whole thing's fine. It might still have issues with starting up and the engine cutting out starting from a stop. I need to drive it around some more. The pre-Bosch stock plugs did the same thing with the starting and engine cutting out thing.