Capturing HD video but not a TS

[HendrixFan]

Ive used the search function here and in general hardware, and searched google. However, I can't seem to find the specific info I need, so I am asking it here.

I have recorded some HD content with my HD-DVR box from TimeWarner. With the upcoming NBA season, I know I will run out of room really fast. Id like to record quite a few games in HD, but I know the signal will be encrypted (TNT HD, ESPN HD) because the channels are additional. From reading around, I cant record the transport stream (.ts) if the station is encrypted.

What I would like to do then is to record the HD content on my HD box, and then copy that over to my computer for long term storage. Im aware of the analog degradation there, but I assume it to be better than recording straight off of Standard Def, and will allow for true widescreen. From reading articles on newer HDTV tuners, they seem to make the point that for HDTV there isnt a difference in quality because it is capturing the TS. That makes sense. However, if I were to try and record the content from the box (which does output in 720P or 1080i, whichever I prefer) could I record it at 720P?

Basically, what I want to do is record games in HD on the box, and keep the best ones by moving them to my computer, keeping the highest quality possible. Can I record at high resolution (1080, 720) with any of the current capture cards, and not just at those resolutions with a TS?

 

[xtknight]

The format doesn't need to be TS to contain a high-resolution video. I think most HDTV capture cards support those HDTV resolutions. I'm fairly positive they all support at least 720p.

Analog? It doesn't have to be analog to go from your box to your PC, but it may cost a ton otherwise.

-It's hard to get the transport stream of it when encrypted. I'm betting there's hacks though. The information is demodulated somewhere along the way.

-Transport stream (TS) is a perfect recording of HDTV, so that's why it's huge.

I still don't quite understand what you're planning on doing. HDTV capture cards do not support encrypted digital cable.

I'm not sure about component, but with composite and S-Video (Y/C) the resolution is limited to 480i. All of the aforementioned are analog connections.

 

[HendrixFan]

Reading up on my HD box, it seems that even though you can hook up an external drive (which will then be formatted) for extra space, that drive wont be detected by windows. Even if you could read the files they are encrypted by the box and the decryption key sits in the box, so moving one drive to another box wont work.

Can anyone confirm specific cards will record analog in HD resolutions?

Ive been looking a the FusionHDTV5 and the ATI HDTV Wonder.

 

[Janooo]

It appears there is no digitial solution that can move and play HD content on your PC available right now.
The only option is analog HD capture via component output at the moment. The setup would cost you about $5K.

 

[SynthDude2001]

Originally posted by: HendrixFan
Can anyone confirm specific cards will record analog in HD resolutions?

I'm not entirely sure I'm understanding your posts correctly, but I haven't heard of any PC HDTV tuner being able to record over analog (Composite, S-Video) at anything more than 480i resolution. To my knowledge there aren't any tuner/capture cards with Component inputs either, so unless your cable box lets you send the transport streams out over Firewire (some do, but I don't know how common this is), you may be limited to 480i recording.

 

[xtknight]

HD in analog just won't work. Anything more than 480i on S-Video (since 525/29.97 (NTSC) or 576/25 (PAL)) is going to look smudgy. I record my HD through S-Video (from external HDTV tuner to an analog capture device). If you want I can screenshot or send a video of how it looks. You won't want to record in PAL to get higher resolution because it's also less FPS.

Besides all of that, you can only record analog with the extra CATV-in on the HDTV capture cards. S-Video is going to provide a better picture than coax (I think). That being said I wish those worthless bastards would provide a YPbPr input already!!

If you don't mind recording in black/white the image will be sharper.

 

[Janooo]

I am sorry to inform you that S-video is not HD.

 

[HendrixFan]

It appears from what Im reading here there is a 480 limit to analog recording. For HD capture it has to be a TS stream which it will just copy (no analog to digital conversion obviously).

Looks like Im outta luck.

 

[Janooo]

Hollywood does not want to make it easy for you. That's for sure.

 

[HDTVMan]

The best recording you can do is get a Philips DVD recorder with Component Video Inputs. I am not positive but they may be able to record in 480P which is DVD quality. (720x480) Just shy of HD. Philips doesnt seem to give enough information to verify that but the idea it is over the component lines is better than over the SVIDEO line.

There is a video capture card that uses Component video inputs as well but I have not seen it in a while. Last I recall it was $300.00 but I cant find it with a quick google.

There are DVI recorders but your going to pay big money for them. Most still only record in PC resolutions up to 1600x1280 not 1920x1080 without costing a car in the process.

How most do it is if your device didnt come with a iLink output they put one in as an aftermarket. I suggest you makes friends with a Dish Network subscriber with an iLink output or a Direct TV guy with an RCA early gen receiver with Optical mod.

I will keep looking otherwise hope you team makes it to the playoffs and you can get it OTA on a Cheap HDTV tuner card.

 

[xtknight]

Maybe ATI's AVIVO will feature component input, so just wait 1 day 13 hrs. If so, I'm sold, no doubt.

 

[SynthDude2001]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Maybe ATI's AVIVO will feature component input, so just wait 1 day 13 hrs. If so, I'm sold, no doubt.

Indeed, such a feature would instantly sell me on the R520 as well. (Not to mention the hardware acceleration of encoding/transcoding many different HD formats :heart:[/i])

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: SynthDude2001

Originally posted by: xtknight
Maybe ATI's AVIVO will feature component input, so just wait 1 day 13 hrs. If so, I'm sold, no doubt.

Indeed, such a feature would instantly sell me on the R520 as well. (Not to mention the hardware acceleration of encoding/transcoding many different HD formats :heart:[/i])

I doubt it, because now that I look at it, it says "via PC displays with DVI.....and composite,...component". Sounds like output. God fscking dammit. :| I'm not going to pay $5k for some stupid device to input component.

 

[SynthDude2001]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: SynthDude2001

Originally posted by: xtknight
Maybe ATI's AVIVO will feature component input, so just wait 1 day 13 hrs. If so, I'm sold, no doubt.

Indeed, such a feature would instantly sell me on the R520 as well. (Not to mention the hardware acceleration of encoding/transcoding many different HD formats :heart:[/i])

I doubt it, because now that I look at it, it says "via PC displays with DVI.....and composite,...component". Sounds like output. God fscking dammit. :|

It's always been just output for component, why can't they do something new

I'd love to be able to record HD from other sources (non-OTA/non-unencrypted-QAM HD broadcasts)...

I guess we will see in any case, but I'm really not too hopeful

 

[xtknight]

If they want it to be "HDTV compatible", why would they think of dropping such a trivial input? Otherwise, what would be new with this AVIVO scam? Just a bit annoyed.

Basically impossible to make my own device because getting the data to the PC is by far the hardest part. Not that hard to find a chip to input YPbPr though.

 

[SynthDude2001]

Originally posted by: HDTVMan
There is a video capture card that uses Component video inputs as well but I have not seen it in a while. Last I recall it was $300.00 but I cant find it with a quick google.

I haven't heard of such a thing, that would be great if true (and if the component inputs could capture at higher than 480i ). The only problem then would be finding some way to encode the raw data into MPEG2 in real time, but having the input capability would be a first step at least...

 

[SynthDude2001]

Originally posted by: xtknight
If they want it to be "HDTV compatible", why would they think of dropping such a trivial input? Otherwise, what would be new with this AVIVO scam? Just a bit annoyed.

Basically impossible to make my own device because getting the data to the PC is by far the hardest part. Not that hard to find a chip to input YPbPr though.

Hollywood has obviously paid off Nvidia and ATI to not allow us to be able to record/input Component

/tinfoil hat conspiracy theory

 

[xtknight]

So are component inputs limited to 480 as well? If so, that's worthless too. My tuner doesn't output firewire.

 

[SynthDude2001]

Originally posted by: xtknight
So are component inputs limited to 480 as well? If so, that's worthless too. My tuner doesn't output firewire.

Nope, Component can do as high as 1080i in general, but I thought I'd read about specific Component inputs on certain TV's that only supported SD resolutions (while another set of Component inputs on that same TV would take HD resolutions [/i])

Basically I was just saying that if such a card existed, then I hope they wouldn't artificially limit its use to 480i capture

 

[xtknight]

I'll take apart this HDTV box, duct tape a hard drive to the demodulator chip and then let Jesus do the rest. That's what I feel like doing now...maybe I can mod it. Then again I'd probably damage this $250 tuner...

 

[HendrixFan]

Originally posted by: SynthDude2001

Originally posted by: xtknight
So are component inputs limited to 480 as well? If so, that's worthless too. My tuner doesn't output firewire.

Nope, Component can do as high as 1080i in general, but I thought I'd read about specific Component inputs on certain TV's that only supported SD resolutions (while another set of Component inputs on that same TV would take HD resolutions [/i])

Basically I was just saying that if such a card existed, then I hope they wouldn't artificially limit its use to 480i capture

From what Ive been reading, the limit isnt the input type, its the analog tuner itself. I mean, you are gonna get better quality from a component cable over a composite cable. But in the end, the analog tuner (encoder) will only give so much quality. In fact, because they can claim wonderful, crisp, clear 1920X1080 captures by copying the TS, they dont have to worry about making solid analog tuners anymore.

 

[rbV5]

Basically, what I want to do is record games in HD on the box, and keep the best ones by moving them to my computer, keeping the highest quality possible. Can I record at high resolution (1080, 720) with any of the current capture cards, and not just at those resolutions with a TS?

No. The transport stream itself is compressed data. If you decompress it to "capture" it, the bitrate is too great for your I/O subsystem even if a capture card had the input. Think dropping frames in 480i with uncompressed analog capture, and you'll get the picture what capturing uncompressed HD would be like.

You would need to "transfer" the compressed data, or it can't work. Just like a firewire transfer from a DV cam, you have to have a lossless data transfer, rather than an analog data capture. If your device doesn't support transfering to another device (firewire to a D-VHS recorder for instance) you have no chance to get it into your PC in HD.

480i for analog capture is the limit.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: HendrixFan
From what Ive been reading, the limit isnt the input type, its the analog tuner itself. I mean, you are gonna get better quality from a component cable over a composite cable. But in the end, the analog tuner (encoder) will only give so much quality. In fact, because they can claim wonderful, crisp, clear 1920X1080 captures by copying the TS, they dont have to worry about making solid analog tuners anymore.

Devices that input component have been around for ages. HDTVs and DVD recorders for example. And Texas Instruments/Philips/Analog Devices have had chips to do that for a while too. Besides that, there is no tuner at all involved in component input. Now if someone (*cough* ATI *cough* NVIDIA) would implement it, the world would be a happier place.

Originally posted by: rbV5
No. The transport stream itself is compressed data. If you decompress it to "capture" it, the bitrate is too great for your I/O subsystem even if a capture card had the input. Think dropping frames in 480i with uncompressed analog capture, and you'll get the picture what capturing uncompressed HD would be like.

Yeah I guess so...compressed 19.9 Mbps TS pales in comparison to what's needed to capture DVI, etc. as I soon found out when I wanted to build my own box, which was pretty much a miserable failure.

 

[rbV5]

Devices that input component have been around for ages. HDTVs and DVD recorders for example. And Texas Instruments/Philips/Analog Devices have had chips to do that for a while too. Besides that, there is no tuner at all involved in component input. Now if someone (*cough* ATI *cough* NVIDIA) would implement it, the world would be a happier place.

Implement it? How? I don't think you're quite understanding the amount of data we're talking here. 2 hours of uncompressed 1080i requires well over 1 terabyte of storage and a minimum of 165 MB/sec throughput..not exactly consumer level requirements.

 

[Janooo]

You should be able to capture HD with this box.

It requiries strong PC: 4x PCIe, fast X2 and a few hundreds of GB in RAID 0. This is the $5K solution that I had in mind in my previous post.

I haven't found anything else available.