Capitalism could be hugely improved via worker representation on board of directors

[kia75]

Does anyone know why in the US management and labor are Adversarial while in other countries (like Germany) labor and management are co-operative?


The Opening Post clearly works in Germany, yet in the US management always tries to screw labor and vice versa. What's exceptional about Germany and lacking in the US?

 

[Matt1970]

You're a right wing puppet, conversation with you is useless.

Hopefully you'll rot away in the extremist podunk right wing trash town or state you are in.

And you aren't a left wing puppet? This isn't Hollywood where you can just grab any person off the street and throw them in the CEO chair and expect them to do a better job. The average Joe snapping pieces of plastic together isn't going to have a better idea of what direction Apple should take.


And conversation with the likes of you is always the same. Just insult those with opposing views.

 

[Matt1970]

Does anyone know why in the US management and labor are Adversarial while in other countries (like Germany) labor and management are co-operative?


The Opening Post clearly works in Germany, yet in the US management always tries to screw labor and vice versa. What's exceptional about Germany and lacking in the US?

If Germany is so great at every single thing they do, why are people still here?

 

[thraashman]

You must be matts 2nd account. I have no proof but you both post the stupidest shit so it must be true.


Personally I don't think share holders should have any say in a company. You buy shares because you support the company, it's management, and the direction they are going and you don't support the company then sell your shares.

While I often find myself at odds with Matt1970 and his views, he at least does present his views in a clear manner with purpose. I may not agree with him on almost anything, but I don't in general think of him as an idiot or insane. I'm fairly sure Pray is just a troll account with the intent of making Christians look bad. And if he's not, he's is an absolute nutball.

 

[BoberFett]

Does anyone know why in the US management and labor are Adversarial while in other countries (like Germany) labor and management are co-operative?


The Opening Post clearly works in Germany, yet in the US management always tries to screw labor and vice versa. What's exceptional about Germany and lacking in the US?

It would seem to be a cultural thing. Americans are fiercely independent. This country was formed and populated by people trying to get away from something. Being forced into cooperative relationships with other people doesn't seem to come naturally to many of us, when compared to other first world nations.

Of course that's just pulled out of my ass, so who knows.

 

[K1052]

If Germany is so great at every single thing they do, why are people still here?

lol

 

[yllus]

I work for an extremely successful global entertainment company.

If most of its employees had a say in running the business (and that includes everyone from people cleaning the toilets, to secretaries, to the creative staff -including myself- to middle management, to most of upper management other than those select few that specifically know how to direct and manage the company's direction and excel at doing just that...

...the whole thing would fold like a house of cards. In no time.

Honestly, I don't think that anything you said here is relevant unless you mean to say that all large German corporations are about to fall like a house of cards. This is a proven system in active current use, not some high schooler's manifesto.

 

[hal2kilo]

If Germany is so great at every single thing they do, why are people still here?

Now that's a sophisticated debating tactic.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Government has no place in dictating who is on the board of private businesses.

 

[thraashman]

Government has no place in dictating who is on the board of private businesses.

Last time we decided to try to put that into practice as a nation, a whole bunch of them collapsed an economic system.

 

[Matt1970]

While I often find myself at odds with Matt1970 and his views, he at least does present his views in a clear manner with purpose. I may not agree with him on almost anything, but I don't in general think of him as an idiot or insane. I'm fairly sure Pray is just a troll account with the intent of making Christians look bad. And if he's not, he's is an absolute nutball.

Thank You. And I can assure you that is not an account of mine. BTW, we are all nutballs to some extent for even being here. I can't imagine many people view their time spent on ATP&N as productive.

 

[Incorruptible]

Last time we decided to try to put that into practice as a nation, a whole bunch of them collapsed an economic system.

Keep spreading lies. Government has no right to tell corporations who to hire and put on the board.

 

[Phokus]

It would seem to be a cultural thing. Americans are fiercely independent. This country was formed and populated by people trying to get away from something. Being forced into cooperative relationships with other people doesn't seem to come naturally to many of us, when compared to other first world nations.

Of course that's just pulled out of my ass, so who knows.

It's because Capitalism is by nature adversarial towards workers, especially organized workers and owners of capital have all the bargaining power. Germany, by forcing companies to have union representation on the board, forces owners to give up some of that power to the unions and since unions have an actual voice and say at the table, aren't as incentivized to demand everything under the sun like their American counterparts. When you have board representation, you're basically like an owner of the company and thus you would act more like one. If you're a union member in an american company and if your management is trying to fuck you over at every turn and the company is a sinking ship, it's not exactly surprising that you, as a union member, would want to extract everything you can before the company goes under/needs to restructure itself rather than working with the company. Also, Germany has very strong pro-union/employee laws that make it very difficult to fire employees and when companies do have to lay employees off, they can't do it right away, they have to partially pay them (while the government picks up the other half of the tab) while the employee retrains. Nothing to do with culture and everything to do with what has happened between employer/employee relations in this country (see: Business owners employing the Pinkertons to crack union skulls or asking the federal government to shoot union members striking).

 

[yllus]

If Germany is so great at every single thing they do, why are people still here?

You're not a dumb guy, Matt, and you've demonstrated the ability to think outside of strict ideological lines - what's with the silliness you're posting in this thread? This is a working, current system that enjoys wide popularity in Germany. The fact that it's real and successful means we should all at least consider it.

Government has no place in dictating who is on the board of private businesses.

Why not? Government dictates plenty of things about private businesses, including their ability to be formed and in what fashion.

I'll say one thing - I don't get you folks who reply with absolute ideological statements. I'll happily put my base ideology aside if you show me a successful experiment (like Germany's) that's leads us towards a better economy or society. If that means taking a few pointers from Marx himself, so be it.

So do me and others a favour and reply with real reasons. I don't particularly care for what your arbitrary ideological stance on something is, but I would be open to hearing why a specific idea is terrible.

 

[Matt1970]

You're not a dumb guy, Matt, and you've demonstrated the ability to think outside of strict ideological lines - what's with the silliness you're posting in this thread? This is a working, current system that enjoys wide popularity in Germany.

It just gets on my nerves how people just want to pick and choose which parts of the German system they like without realizing they have a lot of things in place to protect their way of life that just won't fly here. They want the treat at the bottom of the cereal box without having to eat the crap in the box.

 

[Phokus]

It just gets on my nerves how people just want to pick and choose which parts of the German system they like without realizing they have a lot of things in place to protect their way of life that just won't fly here. They want the treat at the bottom of the cereal box without having to eat the crap in the box.

Actually it probably gets on your nerves more that your ideology is proven to be dog shit because of all the real world examples where you're proven wrong.

 

[yllus]

It just gets on my nerves how people just want to pick and choose which parts of the German system they like without realizing they have a lot of things in place to protect their way of life that just won't fly here.

Just for my education if nothing else, I think it'd be great if you could mention what some of those other components are. My understanding comes from the random articles I've read about the system and Wikipedia, not anything formally learned or actually witnessed.

 

[Matt1970]

Actually it probably gets on your nerves more that your ideology is proven to be dog shit because of all the real world examples where you're proven wrong.

If you ever wanted to get into an actual intelligent debate rather than your 3rd grade antics of insulting everyone who disagrees with you, I would be more that welcome to. For the record, intelligent debate does have the words idiot, retard, and swearing in general is at a minimum. Nobody ever proved anyone wrong by getting to certain number of how many times they called them a fucking retard.

 

[Fern]

I doubt it would work here. It seems in the USA every time we create a position of authority people find a way to subvert it for personal gain.

If companies wanted to do this, there is nothing, nothing, presently stopping them from doing so.

If such a law was enacted and companies didn't want to comply it would be possible to reorganize themselves (e.g., placing BoD under a foreign country) to avoid doing so.

I lived in Germany. German people and US people are very different in ways relevant to the workplace etc.

Fern

 

[Matt1970]

Just for my education if nothing else, I think it'd be great if you could mention what some of those other components are. My understanding comes from the random articles I've read about the system and Wikipedia, not anything formally learned or actually witnessed.

People want the safety nets Germany has and the Healthcare but don't realize they have a pretty high and widespread tax system in place. Their whole tax system isn't riddled with loopholes and deductions that leaves half their work force with a damn near 0 tax liability. They have Tariff, VAT, and Duty rates that add up to 30% for almost everything that comes in their country. Some items are at 50%. That alone would probably put us in a recession. Bye-Bye $8 Walmart jeans and $10 toasters. They also have a 19% sales tax. They have a lot of things some people may want, but they pony up for it.

 

[ivwshane]

While I often find myself at odds with Matt1970 and his views, he at least does present his views in a clear manner with purpose. I may not agree with him on almost anything, but I don't in general think of him as an idiot or insane. I'm fairly sure Pray is just a troll account with the intent of making Christians look bad. And if he's not, he's is an absolute nutball.

It was a jab at pray to for a previous thread in which he accused another poster of being an alternate account for another poster.

 

[Zaap]

This is fine theory. Yet happily we have real world examples and experience to test theory again. In the real world, this doesn't cause (most/many) companies to collapse.

It's ironic- i've pointed out myself on here several times how Germany is majorly (almost shockingly for many) different from the US and even other European countries.

I've challenged people to watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bTKSin4JN4

But of course it's longer than a 2 second clip of someone's cat doing tricks, so people don't know how to cope.

Most of the leftwing twats posting on this board would blow a gasket if our society moved toward becoming anything like much of Germany's system.

In that video, you'll hear Germans themselves explain to you why they don't go for trying to create Google, Apple, Microsoft, but rather their businesses play it very safe and are a lot more protectionist.

There's a LOT I like about German society- but we in the US don't live in it. Trying to transplant all of their ideas, without also adopting much of their cultural attitudes that go along with it, won't necessarily work. I'm all in favor of adopting what does work. (And that's not putting janitors and make-believe business people at the helm of the company.) Heck, I'd be all for us becoming a LOT like Germany. But we won't, unfortunately.

 

[Michael]

First of all, employees and their unions/pension plans own a lot of stock and already have the ability to get directors elected in some cases.

I really don't have time to distill my 30+ years of experience, including actually being on the BoD of a public company, but in my experience and opinion the benefits to having worker representatives on the Board are outweighed by the negatives.

The ability of the economy in the USA to hire and fire quickly is a key advantage. Germany is a much smaller country with a completely different culture. Although I don't think their system is the best, it beats the French system of kidnapping executives.

Much of these types of discussions would be moot if the average shareholders actually used their existing voting rights.

Michael

 

[ivwshane]

It's ironic- i've pointed out myself on here several times how Germany is majorly (almost shockingly for many) different from the US and even other European countries.

I've challenged people to watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bTKSin4JN4

But of course it's longer than a 2 second clip of someone's cat doing tricks, so people don't know how to cope.

Most of the leftwing twats posting on this board would blow a gasket if our society moved toward becoming anything like much of Germany's system.

In that video, you'll hear Germans themselves explain to you why they don't go for trying to create Google, Apple, Microsoft, but rather their businesses play it very safe and are a lot more protectionist.

There's a LOT I like about German society- but we in the US don't live in it. Trying to transplant all of their ideas, without also adopting much of their cultural attitudes that go along with it, won't necessarily work. I'm all in favor of adopting what does work. (And that's not putting janitors and make-believe business people at the helm of the company.) Heck, I'd be all for us becoming a LOT like Germany. But we won't, unfortunately.

Can you point to anyone's post here or on this board that stated we should adopt all of Germany's policies? If you can't and people are only pointing out some of Germany's policies we could benefit from then why would we also have to adopt their culture? That's a little hyperbolic on your part isn't it? So what was your point again? This time try it without resorting to hyperbole.

 

[Incorruptible]

Capitalism could be hugely improved if there was real Capitalism and not crony Capitalism.