capacitors and car electronics

[Eli]

A cap wouldn't do anything.

Even a 1/2 farad cap would drain nearly instantly in said scenarios.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Minjin
You love the insults don't you?

As much as you love to passive-aggressivly use phrases like "or does that make too much sense" and then pretend you aren't the instigator kiddo.

Originally posted by: Minjin
The only symptom we've been told is that the lights flicker. But does that mean they they dim for a split second or does that mean it dims for a few seconds or for however long the window switch is held down? Did he give us any voltage readings? I don't seem to have noticed any in his post. As for the maximum capacity of the alternator, of course he's not reaching it. But it is very possible that he is reaching the capacity of the alternator at that time. More than likely, the symptoms he is describing are at idle. A car god like you must know that an alternator doesn't come anywhere close to full capacity at idle. So is it quite possible that the maximum draw when he is using the acessories is more than the alternator can handle? Yes it is. Maybe its a replacement alternator that has a lower amperage than stock (this does happen). Would I recommend changing anything on his car? Of course not. I would recommend that he give everything a close look to make sure it is functioning correctly. I would recommend that he maybe even check idle speed (if you can on those engines) to make sure its not too low. But going with the info that he stated, that the car has alternator issues, and he is experiencing voltage related problems, looking into an alternator makes sense.

Mark

The definition of "flicker" is a near-instantaneously-rectified dimming. I have never in my life heard anyone refer to a "flicker" that lasted longer than a fraction of a second. The clear implication of his posts is that the dimming is not for the full duration of the accessory use.

Additionally, The symptoms he describes, if they are happening at idle as you suggest (which doesn't mesh with his talk about "driving down the road at night") are 100% normal for all properly functioning vehicles.

ZV

 

[Cdubneeddeal]

No use in debating with Zen, read his sig 😀

I've got into it with you in the past as well. I've given up 😉

 

[Minjin]

Originally posted by: Cdubneeddeal
No use in debating with Zen, read his sig 😀

I've got into it with you in the past as well. I've given up 😉

Yeah, that sig shows how mature he is.

Mark

 

[MrDudeMan]

Originally posted by: Minjin

Originally posted by: Cdubneeddeal
No use in debating with Zen, read his sig 😀

I've got into it with you in the past as well. I've given up 😉

Yeah, that sig shows how mature he is.

Mark

you guys, sorry to say, are completely clueless if you think upgrading an alternator would solve a voltage sag. the potential across any alternator would fluctuate irregardless of its maximum current output. it can not deliver peak power when a massive surge current. it will follow expected and predictable patterns to output the power being drawn by dropping voltage and increasing current. that will happen even if the alternator can produce 1000kA. it simply can not change instantly as that is the nature of the component. you must have never seen or messed around with an inductor connected to an oscilloscope in a lab or studied the behavior of an RLC circuit. this is very simple analog circuit theory.

eli, a capacitor most definitely would do something. it would not discharge instantly unless it was shorted. the current delivered by a capacitor would match the peak surge current drawn by any electronics in the car. what the hell do you people think capacitors are used for in small electronics? sure, they are filters, but do you know why they filter? they charge with a certain voltage and then resist that change in voltage by providing a current to where power is being drawn. when you roll down the damn windows and the potential from the alternator sags, the capacitor will resist the voltage drop and increase current on the line, effectively reducing the dimming of the lights or the sluggish response of the window motor. why do you think capacitors are used for high power car amplifiers? the response of the subs is way faster than the alternator can deliver current without increasing the potential for electromechanical damage. the capacitor, however, can deliver the charge on the order of microseconds, so the alternator never sees the strain of varying phase, magnitude, and frequency of current draw. i design this stuff everyday so i think i might know a little bit about it. zen isnt immature - you guys just have your head shoved up your a$$ and cant admit you dont have any idea what you are talking about.

Originally posted by: Minjin

You love the insults don't you?

The only symptom we've been told is that the lights flicker. But does that mean they they dim for a split second or does that mean it dims for a few seconds or for however long the window switch is held down? Did he give us any voltage readings? I don't seem to have noticed any in his post. As for the maximum capacity of the alternator, of course he's not reaching it. But it is very possible that he is reaching the capacity of the alternator at that time. More than likely, the symptoms he is describing are at idle. A car god like you must know that an alternator doesn't come anywhere close to full capacity at idle. So is it quite possible that the maximum draw when he is using the acessories is more than the alternator can handle? Yes it is. Maybe its a replacement alternator that has a lower amperage than stock (this does happen). Would I recommend changing anything on his car? Of course not. I would recommend that he give everything a close look to make sure it is functioning correctly. I would recommend that he maybe even check idle speed (if you can on those engines) to make sure its not too low. But going with the info that he stated, that the car has alternator issues, and he is experiencing voltage related problems, looking into an alternator makes sense.

Mark

BZZT! WRONG! if you are experiencing CURRENT related problems, you need a new alternator. alternators (large inductor coils) do NOT make sense to inspect if there is a peak delivery related problem with the voltage. that can not be fixed as inductors are meant to solve current issues, not voltage issues! that is what capacitors are for. both devices can also be used to filter high/low frequencies, but that isnt the case here. if you guys still cant understand that the current output will not instantly change to meet the needs of the connected components at the same voltage, you need to read some circuit theory and figure it out for yourself.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan

Originally posted by: Minjin

Originally posted by: Cdubneeddeal
No use in debating with Zen, read his sig 😀

I've got into it with you in the past as well. I've given up 😉

Yeah, that sig shows how mature he is.

Mark

you guys, sorry to say, are completely clueless if you think upgrading an alternator would solve a voltage sag. the potential across any alternator would fluctuate irregardless of its maximum current output. it can not deliver peak power when a massive surge current. it will follow expected and predictable patterns to output the power being drawn by dropping voltage and increasing current. that will happen even if the alternator can produce 1000kA. it simply can not change instantly as that is the nature of the component. you must have never seen or messed around with an inductor connected to an oscilloscope in a lab or studied the behavior of an RLC circuit. this is very simple analog circuit theory.

eli, a capacitor most definitely would do something. it would not discharge instantly unless it was shorted. the current delivered by a capacitor would match the peak surge current drawn by any electronics in the car. what the hell do you people think capacitors are used for in small electronics? sure, they are filters, but do you know why they filter? they charge with a certain voltage and then resist that change in voltage by providing a current to where power is being drawn. when you roll down the damn windows and the potential from the alternator sags, the capacitor will resist the voltage drop and increase current on the line, effectively reducing the dimming of the lights or the sluggish response of the window motor. why do you think capacitors are used for high power car amplifiers? the response of the subs is way faster than the alternator can deliver current without increasing the potential for electromechanical damage. the capacitor, however, can deliver the charge on the order of microseconds, so the alternator never sees the strain of varying phase, magnitude, and frequency of current draw. i design this stuff everyday so i think i might know a little bit about it. zen isnt immature - you guys just have your head shoved up your a$$ and cant admit you dont have any idea what you are talking about.

Yes, I understand this.. my point was that 1/2 a farad, while a lot in terms of capacitors.. really isn't very much.

It certainly wouldn't hurt though. But you're right, upgrading the alternator isn't the right way to go.

 

[LTC8K6]

This brief dimming is entirely normal. It does not mean you have a weak alternator at all.

It's not broke, do not fix it.

Incidentally, I put a pair of 55watt hellas on my car one time. At idle with all of the lights turned on, the alternator light would flicker.

That was an overburdened alternator!

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
This brief dimming is entirely normal. It does not mean you have a weak alternator at all.

It's not broke, do not fix it.

Incidentally, I put a pair of 55watt hellas on my car one time. At idle with all of the lights turned on, the alternator light would flicker.

That was an overburdened alternator!

Nah, it just meant that at idle, the alternator wasn't putting out very much juice, which is normal. They don't generally kick in full until like 2200RPM.

 

[MrDudeMan]

Originally posted by: Eli
Yes, I understand this.. my point was that 1/2 a farad, while a lot in terms of capacitors.. really isn't very much.

It certainly wouldn't hurt though. But you're right, upgrading the alternator isn't the right way to go.

i agree that 1/2 farad is not really all that much, but it can deliver roughly 40mA at 14 volts which will definitely reduce the voltage sag from the alternator. a 1 farad cap would obviously produce 2x as much current almost instantly, which will help a whole heck of a lot more. in the grand scheme of things, however, you will never be rid of the voltage sag since things like headlights are non-linear devices and non-ohmic materials, so the initial current draw through a regular bulb is in the thousands of amps. that is true also for incandescent bulbs in your home.

 

[LTC8K6]

Yeah, at idle my battery was draining. 😀

My point was that he would see it on his dash if he had a weak alternator.

 

[Googer]

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK

Originally posted by: Evadman

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK

Originally posted by: Minjin
capacitor=$50
alternator=$500

I put 2 150 amp alternators in my old GMC Jimmy for < $200. You need to find somewhere else to shop.


<edit>
forgot closing [/Q] bracket

yea, i dont think its the same for a newer honda, plus I have to pay to have it installed... even if it would cost $250, $50 for a cap is much cheaper...

If your electrical source cannot supply the correct amout of current to keep the capacitor charged then the worlds largest capacitor may just do you no good at all. You need to upgrade the power source first then install a few capacitors after words. Otherwise you will need to ditch the power hungry stereo/speakers.

 

[bootymac]

.

 

[Googer]

From what I have read it seems that the stock alternator is 80 amperes. I found one on ebay that is 270 amperes for around $279 (about $1 per amp- the best value). They make some that go as high as 265 Amperes, thats more than the 80 amps that my home circuit breaker is rated for!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI...iewItem&category=33573&item=8019832914

http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=alt...accord+amp+OR+ampere&hl=en&btnG=Search