Canon XTi and Nikon D40x

[lambchops511]

I just saw at my local Costco a Nikon D40x w/ the standard 18-55mm lens for 680 + tax . good deal?

What are some Nikon lenses that you would recommend getting with this kit? My total budget for lenses + body is around $800.

Previously, I was looking at the Canon XTi, but it is much more expensive here in Canada. If I go for the XTi, I will wait till I travel to the states in May (dell.com for $600 with 18-55 lens).


A few questions:

Should I be concerned about the Nikon's 3 Autofocus point vs Canon's 9?

Should I be concerned that Nikon uses CCD while Canon uses CMOS for the sensor?

Are Nikon lenses *generally* more/less expensive or more/less superior to Canon lenses?

Thanks

 

[jpeyton]

They have Costco in Canada? Cool.

Should I be concerned about the Nikon's 3 Autofocus point vs Canon's 9?

Depends. For most of my shooting, I use the center sensor to auto-focus; I don't like letting the camera pick the focus points. So in my case, it wouldn't matter.

Should I be concerned that Nikon uses CCD while Canon uses CMOS for the sensor?

No, image quality is about the same.

Are Nikon lenses *generally* more/less expensive or more/less superior to Canon lenses?

Lens quality is the same. Nikon lenses are generally less expensive. Also, the used market for Nikon lenses is a lot cheaper. Did you know that the D40 is compatible with every Nikon F-mount lens from 1959 to today? Some of the best quality lenses were manufactured decades ago, and they go for dirt cheap on eBay. I recently bought a 55mm Nikon Micro-Nikkor (macro) lens for under $40 for my D50; it's one of the best macro lenses Nikon ever made. Try finding a good Canon EF Macro lens for under $50.

 

[soydios]

Originally posted by: aznium
Should I be concerned about the Nikon's 3 Autofocus point vs Canon's 9?

It honestly depends on how you shoot. My procedure is to zoom, focus with the center area on my subject, then reframe. The Canon has more AF points, but DPReview's technical specifications spreadsheets for each camera give me the impression that AF program modes to use them are somewhat limited? Someone who owns the camera please chime in here.

Should I be concerned that Nikon uses CCD while Canon uses CMOS for the sensor?

Short answer: no, image quality is the same. You won't be able to tell the difference.

Are Nikon lenses *generally* more/less expensive or more/less superior to Canon lenses?

The lens families of Canon and Nikon are at roughly the same prices and quality. Both companies make photolithography equipment, so SLR lenses are child's play by comparison.
Canon changed their mount to the EOS system in 1987, so only EOS, EF, and EF-S lenses will mount to their cameras now. Nikon has not fundamentally changed the F-mount since its introduction in 1959, so the market for used lenses is huge. But, only newer AF-S lenses will autofocus on the D40, D40x, or D60.

 

[lambchops511]

Thanks for replies,

yes, I am concerned with the Nikon AF-S since they are the only ones that will autofocus for the D40x . are AF-S lenses abundant? I know there are quite a lot of EF/EF-S lenses that are compatible with the Canon D400 XTi

And yes we have costco . and what's cool is that the costco cards are interborder, ie. I can take my costco membership card from canada and it'll work in california

Both the Canon and Nikon don't feature in body image stablizers . Do you think this will be a problem? All the lenses that do come with image stabilizers seem quite expensive.


any recommendations for Nikon Lenses for a beginner?

 

[ElFenix]

as for price, i dunno, is the canadian dollar still worth the same as the US dollar?

canon's CMOS maintains a bit more detail at higher ISOs (though in this it looks like it's pulling in more detail at every level, perhaps it's just higher levels of camera-applied sharpening?)

nikon's vaunted compatibility has more holes than swiss cheese. D40 won't AF with nikon's oldest AF lenses (which use a body-driven screw to power the AF rather than an internal motor like the newer AF-I and AF-S lenses have). and it won't meter with AI or AI-S lenses (which the pro bodies will do, AI and AI-S lenses are even older than the AF types above). and lenses even older than AI type lenses can damage the camera body if not converted to AI spec prior to use (though i don't know if this damaging is only theoretical or if it has actually happened, seems it may be a specific lens to specific camera issue).

recently bought a 55mm Nikon Micro-Nikkor (macro) lens for under $40 for my D50; it's one of the best macro lenses Nikon ever made. Try finding a good Canon EF Macro lens for under $50.

i'd just buy the nikon and an adapter and i'd maintain metering so

for the uninitiated, canon eos cameras can take adapters that allow them to use nikon lenses. you end up in the odd situation where modern cheap canon bodies can use old nikon lenses better than the modern cheap nikon bodies can. the opposite is not true, nikon cameras cannot be easily adapted to use canon lenses. canon can take adapters that allow the use of most lenses, the prime exceptions being canon manual focus, minolta manual focus (which a mount swap can take care of) and 4/3 lenses.

Originally posted by: aznium
Thanks for replies,

yes, I am concerned with the Nikon AF-S since they are the only ones that will autofocus for the D40x . are AF-S lenses abundant? I know there are quite a lot of EF/EF-S lenses that are compatible with the Canon D400 XTi

And yes we have costco . and what's cool is that the costco cards are interborder, ie. I can take my costco membership card from canada and it'll work in california

Both the Canon and Nikon don't feature in body image stablizers . Do you think this will be a problem? All the lenses that do come with image stabilizers seem quite expensive.


any recommendations for Nikon Lenses for a beginner?

AF-S and AF-I lenses are abundant for most photo work. all the lenses specifically designed for digital SLRs, the DX line, are AF-S. prime lenses are where nikon is really lagging in updating the lenses, but unless you're pretty advanced you probably won't miss them.

there is one exception. normally i'd suggest the 50 f/1.8 for most cameras, but nikon's version won't autofocus on the D40x. if you are ok with focusing it yourself then you should still get it, it's only about $100 for a new one and it's one of the best optics that nikon makes.

other than that, the 18-250 VR is a nice lens for traveling around. it'll blow your budget, though. you might want to think about the D40, rather than the D40x. bodies are practically disposable on the low end, whereas glass holds it's value and use.

canon just released a pair of inexpensive image stabilized lenses that cover the range from 18-250. however, they're not in kits *yet* (the 18-55IS will be available with the new XSi camera).

 

[lambchops511]

Thanks for the reply ElFenix

Canadian dollar is still more or less equal with the US dollar =)

Yes, I was googling and was very confused how the 50 f/1.8 for nikon won't autofocus . I thought I read wrong or something.

I guess I will go with Canon just because Nikon doesn't seem to have enough AF-S lenses (plenty of AF lenses tho, but since I am an amateur I do not think I am ready for autofocus yet). especially the 50mm f/1.8 which I hear good things about for the Canon too as well

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
canon's CMOS maintains a bit more detail at higher ISOs (though in this it looks like it's pulling in more detail at every level, perhaps it's just higher levels of camera-applied sharpening?)

Interesting; in their studio scene analysis looking at the 100% crops, they can't pick a winner between the Nikon or Canon. Resolution charts show the same numbers.

and lenses even older than AI type lenses can damage the camera body if not converted to AI spec prior to use (though i don't know if this damaging is only theoretical or if it has actually happened, seems it may be a specific lens to specific camera issue).

That isn't true for the D40/D60; both can use pre-AI lenses without conversion.

i'd just buy the nikon and an adapter and i'd maintain metering so

For macro, I'm high-speed bracketing and shooting in RAW anyway. The beauty of digital SLRs is that the built-in histograms are perfect for manual metering. If I'm more than a few stops off target, it takes a second to flip the aperture ring or adjust the shutter speed and shoot it again (but not really needed if you're bracketing).

for the uninitiated, canon eos cameras can take adapters that allow them to use nikon lenses. you end up in the odd situation where modern cheap canon bodies can use old nikon lenses better than the modern cheap nikon bodies can.

It's a godsend for Canon users who want sharp Nikon glass. For example, compare a modern Canon 50mm EF to a 30 year old Nikon Nikkor 50mm:

Canon 1
Nikon 1

Canon 2
Nikon 2

Here's more info on using old Nikon lenses with Canon SLRs.

 

[lambchops511]

thanks for the images jpeyton,

o man, are those canon pictures purposely taken bad or what? they look horrible


where and how much can i get a adaptor to use nikon lenses for canon body? I can't find any on ebay

If i were to get a Canon body, would you say its better to just get the nikon 50mm instead of the 50mm canon EF f1.8?

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: aznium
where and how much can i get a adaptor to use nikon lenses for canon body? I can't find any on ebay

Here you go. Even the cheap ones work fine.

If i were to get a Canon body, would you say its better to just get the nikon 50mm instead of the 50mm canon EF f1.8?

Using older lenses requires more work than just 'point-and-shoot'. That can be a good thing, especially for someone just learning about photography.

You will have to manually focus the lens (not that difficult), and you will have to shoot in 'Aperture Priority' mode with stop down metering. That means you physically turn the aperture ring on the lens to the your desired value, and the camera will automatically choose the proper shutter speed for you.

For example, if you wanted a shallow depth of field (or if you were shooting in low light conditions), you would turn the aperture ring on the lens to f/1.8 or f/2, then you would manually focus on your subject, compose your shot and click the shutter. If you want a larger depth-of-field (for a landscape shot), click the ring to f/8, and do the same.

 

[Fardringle]

Wow. The difference in those two lenses almost makes it look like the photographer intentionally moved the Canon lens slightly out of focus to make the Nikon lens look better.

I won't be in the market for a Digital SLR for a while (no money ) but I've been leaning towards some of the low/mid range Nikon options simply because I have several old Nikkor lenses from my grandfather's old film camera which no longer works. If I can use those same lenses effectively on a Canon EOS mount (apparently even better than the Nikon cameras would), I may just have to lean back in the direction of a Canon camera.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Fardringle
Wow. The difference in those two lenses almost makes it look like the photographer intentionally moved the Canon lens slightly out of focus to make the Nikon lens look better.

The website has a resolution test table from Modern Photography Magazine that numerically paints the same picture as the photographic tests.

 

[Heidfirst]

You also might want to check out the Sony A200.
It lists in Canada for $650 so should be cheaper street. http://www.sonystyle.ca/commer...tPartner=HomepageSpot1
You'll gain in-body IS & there are plenty of lenses etc. available at this level (if you had really specialised needs then Canon & Nikon have wider systems but by the time - if ever - that you need those options I'm pretty sure that Sony will have most of them too, they're really investing heavily in the Alpha system).

Image quality between all 3 is likely to be very similar tbh but if you can get to a shop & handle them & see which you prefer.

 

[Krioni]

As has been suggested already, I would REALLY recommend going to a shop and holding all of the cameras in your price range.

I was initially leaning toward Canon because I already had 2 Canon lenses from my older film Canon Rebel that would I would be able to use. I went to BestBuy and held the Nikon D40, Canon Rebel XTi, Olympus E-510* and Sony A100 (I think that was the model). For me, the *feel* of the Nikon was the best, followed closely by the Olympus. The Canon probably felt the worst in my hands... again, that's just me. My point is, that the physical design of the camera made a HUGE difference to me.

In the end, I bought a used Nikon D50 because of how the Nikons felt in my hands and specifically the D50 because it has the focus motor built into the body (unlike the D40) and I got a really good deal on eBay

*As a note, the Olympus is quite an attractive package... the E510 has in-body stabilization, LiveView and a good sensor dust-removal feacture. If I had a little more money, I probably would have bought the Olympus 510 Kit, which by the way should be in your price range... possibly even with 2 lenses (Check Amazon.com)

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
It's a godsend for Canon users who want sharp Nikon glass. For example, compare a modern Canon 50mm EF to a 30 year old Nikon Nikkor 50mm:

Canon 1
Nikon 1

Canon 2
Nikon 2

Here's more info on using old Nikon lenses with Canon SLRs.

now i'm genuinely intrigued. i pulled most of my money out of my pp account yesterday. maybe when i sell the xti i'll look into this myself.

 

[Aharami]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: jpeyton
It's a godsend for Canon users who want sharp Nikon glass. For example, compare a modern Canon 50mm EF to a 30 year old Nikon Nikkor 50mm:

Canon 1
Nikon 1

Canon 2
Nikon 2

Here's more info on using old Nikon lenses with Canon SLRs.

now i'm genuinely intrigued. i pulled most of my money out of my pp account yesterday. maybe when i sell the xti i'll look into this myself.

seriously! jpeyton, do you know what canon lens was used for those pictures. quality of those crops is worse than what i'd get with my S3

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
for the uninitiated, canon eos cameras can take adapters that allow them to use nikon lenses. you end up in the odd situation where modern cheap canon bodies can use old nikon lenses better than the modern cheap nikon bodies can.

Heh, Canon can use old Nikon glass better than Nikon can, but Canon can't use old Canon (F-mount) glass.

 

[Krioni]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
for the uninitiated, canon eos cameras can take adapters that allow them to use nikon lenses. you end up in the odd situation where modern cheap canon bodies can use old nikon lenses better than the modern cheap nikon bodies can.

Does this only apply to the D40/D40x/D60 line of Nikons because of not having an in-body focus drive? Or does this also apply to some of the others like the D50(which I have), D70, D70s, etc.? I just bought a manual focus Nikon E Series 50mm f/1.8 on eBay for $20 shipped. It seems to work great on my D50.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Krioni

Originally posted by: ElFenix
for the uninitiated, canon eos cameras can take adapters that allow them to use nikon lenses. you end up in the odd situation where modern cheap canon bodies can use old nikon lenses better than the modern cheap nikon bodies can.

Does this only apply to the D40/D40x/D60 line of Nikons because of not having an in-body focus drive? Or does this also apply to some of the others like the D50(which I have), D70, D70s, etc.? I just bought a manual focus Nikon E Series 50mm f/1.8 on eBay for $20 shipped. It seems to work great on my D50.

does it meter? MF lenses aren't supposed to meter on the consumer/enthusiast) level (D80 and below) nikon cameras. they will meter on canon cameras with appropriate adapter (using manual stop down).

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Aharami

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: jpeyton
It's a godsend for Canon users who want sharp Nikon glass. For example, compare a modern Canon 50mm EF to a 30 year old Nikon Nikkor 50mm:

Canon 1
Nikon 1

Canon 2
Nikon 2

Here's more info on using old Nikon lenses with Canon SLRs.

now i'm genuinely intrigued. i pulled most of my money out of my pp account yesterday. maybe when i sell the xti i'll look into this myself.

seriously! jpeyton, do you know what canon lens was used for those pictures. quality of those crops is worse than what i'd get with my S3

The website says it's a Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 Mark I; I looked up the lens and it's the metal-mount version of the current 'plastic fantastic' (Mark II). All the info I found says it is optically the same as the Mark II; they just changed the mount from metal to plastic.

I'm guessing the Nikon is the one he has pictured on his website mounted to a Canon; Nikkor S C 50mm f/1.4. It goes for about $40 on eBay. It is the non-AI (or pre-AI) version; Nikon also made an AI version that is very slightly softer, but also commands a higher price on eBay.

According to the test results from Modern Photography Magazine, the Nikkor at f/1.4 scores almost as well as the Canon at f/8. At f/2.8 (which they used for the test shot), it is somewhat sharper in the center, but considerably sharper in the corners. At f/8, the Nikkor scores better than the Zeiss Planar 50mm.

You guys should really give a good hard look at these old Nikkor lenses. For the cost of one new Canon EF, you can buy a herd of brilliant old Nikkors that put a little old-school spin on modern photography. I think it's fun stop-down metering and manually focusing (except for sports/action photography).

 

[Heidfirst]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

You guys should really give a good hard look at these old Nikkor lenses. For the cost of one new Canon EF, you can buy a herd of brilliant old Nikkors that put a little old-school spin on modern photography. I think it's fun stop-down metering and manually focusing (except for sports/action photography).

Pretty much the same is true of old Minolta & Pentax lenses (probably Olympus too).

 

[soydios]

It's only the double-digit Nikon bodies that don't meter with really old lenses. But with digital photography and in-camera histograms, I don't really see why that's more than a minor quibble. If I'm manually focusing then I'm also probably using manual exposure; that's how I shoot.

And some of the pre-AI Nikkors protrude too far into the camera body, like the 6mm full-frame fisheye. That's why you can't mount some models on the newer cameras, which don't feature a permanent mirror lockup. My pre-AI 50mm f/1.4 and 135mm f/3.5 mount perfectly onto my D50, and make the great pictures that you would expect them to.