- Oct 9, 1999
- 72,636
- 47
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Canon EOS Rebel T1i First Hands On: 50D's Sensor, 1080p Vids, $899
- Thread starter NFS4
- Start date
secretanchitman
Diamond Member
- Apr 11, 2001
- 9,352
- 23
- 91
my dad just got the D90 - looks like a very nice rival to it. wonder what the head-to-head comparison will look like! 
Hopefully this means a new 50D successor is on the way
Here's an early comparison with some results:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/T1I/T1IA.HTM
Here's an early comparison with some results:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/T1I/T1IA.HTM
- Aug 23, 2003
- 25,375
- 142
- 116
1080p20? WTF?
500D ISO6400
D90 ISO6400
Open them up in consecutive tabs; zoom in on the fabric swatch, and pay attention in particular to the red swatches. The 500D's noise reduction obliterates detail. There is also noticeably more noise in the shadows. Canon is finally getting chroma noise under control this time around, which is a plus, but the D90 still puts out a cleaner image IMO.
Gizmodo Sample Video - 1080p20 looks like it was taken with a webcam, it's so herky-jerky. 720p30 looks fine.
I guess we'll have to wait until the 550D if we want 1080p done right on a Rebel (unless Canon decides to cripple it through firmware).
Comparing the test samples from Imaging Resource, the picture quality of the D90 is better at high ISOs:Originally posted by: secretanchitman
my dad just got the D90 - looks like a very nice rival to it. wonder what the head-to-head comparison will look like!
500D ISO6400
D90 ISO6400
Open them up in consecutive tabs; zoom in on the fabric swatch, and pay attention in particular to the red swatches. The 500D's noise reduction obliterates detail. There is also noticeably more noise in the shadows. Canon is finally getting chroma noise under control this time around, which is a plus, but the D90 still puts out a cleaner image IMO.
Gizmodo Sample Video - 1080p20 looks like it was taken with a webcam, it's so herky-jerky. 720p30 looks fine.
I guess we'll have to wait until the 550D if we want 1080p done right on a Rebel (unless Canon decides to cripple it through firmware).
Damn....this is really quite the camera. I have had the XTi for the past two years and this is the first camera that has really made me consider upgrading! It sounds incredible, like a will it blend experiment between a 50D and 5DMKII that was actually productive.
GTaudiophile
Lifer
- Oct 24, 2000
- 29,767
- 33
- 81
What's wrong with their AF system? My 40D's AF is fine for most purposes, even some light birding...
mono sound... no external input for something else =( Tho, that was definitely not going to likely happen.
Interesting though. I've been going back and forth with getting an LX3 or a small lightweight dSLR. I think I'm expecting too much from the LX3, so I won't be happy. And I want to play w/ HD video... and utilize my lenses. Sooo... maybe I'll save more and get this down the road.
Interesting though. I've been going back and forth with getting an LX3 or a small lightweight dSLR. I think I'm expecting too much from the LX3, so I won't be happy. And I want to play w/ HD video... and utilize my lenses. Sooo... maybe I'll save more and get this down the road.
Aharami
Lifer
- Aug 31, 2001
- 21,205
- 165
- 106
Originally posted by: jpeyton
1080p20? WTF?
Comparing the test samples from Imaging Resource, the picture quality of the D90 is better at high ISOs:Originally posted by: secretanchitman
my dad just got the D90 - looks like a very nice rival to it. wonder what the head-to-head comparison will look like!
500D ISO6400
D90 ISO6400
Open them up in consecutive tabs; zoom in on the fabric swatch, and pay attention in particular to the red swatches. The 500D's noise reduction obliterates detail. There is also noticeably more noise in the shadows. Canon is finally getting chroma noise under control this time around, which is a plus, but the D90 still puts out a cleaner image IMO.
Gizmodo Sample Video - 1080p20 looks like it was taken with a webcam, it's so herky-jerky. 720p30 looks fine.
I guess we'll have to wait until the 550D if we want 1080p done right on a Rebel (unless Canon decides to cripple it through firmware).
I agree, D90 image does look better. But the 500D is a beta and hopefully Canon will be able to improve the IQ before it hits the market. I'm the market for a DSLR, and I was just going to post a thread here asking if Canon's next xxxD DSLR will have video in it. I want to get it before our honeymoon in July. Video would be nice to have (I use it a lot on my S3IS) but if not, I'll get the XSi (D90 is out of my price range)
- Mar 20, 2000
- 102,389
- 8,547
- 126
i scanned the thread title and thought, wth, why is someone comparing a crappy film camera to the 50D?
birders seem to love the 50D's AF.
strange, the detail is there in the 50D's nr off picture. just another reason to PP yourself i guess.
on another note, why the hell can't the photography review places use the same exposure? the d90 is f/8 and 1/800th, and the canon is at f/8 and 1/1000th. the nikon is getting more signal to work with. that is not a good practice for a noise test.
the other issue is that the nikon is using a 105 mm lens and the canon is using a 70 mm lens. so they're either moving the cameras around (bad) or they're shooting the chart wrong (also bad). further, considering canon doesn't make a 70 mm fixed focal lens, we have to assume the canon has a zoom (i doubt they're using the sigma 70 macro). no idea what's on the nikon, but it could be a fixed focal or a zoom. zooms will almost always have a worse t number than a fixed focal, so possibly lower exposure and less signal for the canon (again).
the ideal review setup is to use as similar as possible lenses from as close to the same position as possible to have the chart fill the sensor. that means 50 mm macro for 4/3, 60 mm macro for aps-c, and 100 mm macro for 35 mm. or, use fast standard zooms for each and shoot from the same position.
birders seem to love the 50D's AF.
strange, the detail is there in the 50D's nr off picture. just another reason to PP yourself i guess.
on another note, why the hell can't the photography review places use the same exposure? the d90 is f/8 and 1/800th, and the canon is at f/8 and 1/1000th. the nikon is getting more signal to work with. that is not a good practice for a noise test.
the other issue is that the nikon is using a 105 mm lens and the canon is using a 70 mm lens. so they're either moving the cameras around (bad) or they're shooting the chart wrong (also bad). further, considering canon doesn't make a 70 mm fixed focal lens, we have to assume the canon has a zoom (i doubt they're using the sigma 70 macro). no idea what's on the nikon, but it could be a fixed focal or a zoom. zooms will almost always have a worse t number than a fixed focal, so possibly lower exposure and less signal for the canon (again).
the ideal review setup is to use as similar as possible lenses from as close to the same position as possible to have the chart fill the sensor. that means 50 mm macro for 4/3, 60 mm macro for aps-c, and 100 mm macro for 35 mm. or, use fast standard zooms for each and shoot from the same position.
Originally posted by: jpeyton
1080p20? WTF?
Comparing the test samples from Imaging Resource, the picture quality of the D90 is better at high ISOs:Originally posted by: secretanchitman
my dad just got the D90 - looks like a very nice rival to it. wonder what the head-to-head comparison will look like!
500D ISO6400
D90 ISO6400
Open them up in consecutive tabs; zoom in on the fabric swatch, and pay attention in particular to the red swatches. The 500D's noise reduction obliterates detail. There is also noticeably more noise in the shadows. Canon is finally getting chroma noise under control this time around, which is a plus, but the D90 still puts out a cleaner image IMO.
Gizmodo Sample Video - 1080p20 looks like it was taken with a webcam, it's so herky-jerky. 720p30 looks fine.
I guess we'll have to wait until the 550D if we want 1080p done right on a Rebel (unless Canon decides to cripple it through firmware).
Keep in mind that things have been changed greatly over the years and vertifying noise level is a lot more complicated as there're many options that greatly affects noise level.
Without knowing a. what kind and level of noise reductions b. lighting optimizers c. hightlight tone priority mode d. picture style or control are applied on both cameras, it's too early to come up with a conclusion.
Good example that I always like to use is Pentax *ist DS. It's got terrible reviews because its default mode was Bright Mode which produces vivid images with great sacrifice of DR, WB, and noise. Two simple click to Neutral mode would've produced much better lab results but since that wasn't the standard mode, *DS is still widly known as a camera that produces vivid imgages that lacks in DR, WB, and noise department.
BTW, high speed ISO noise reduction was off on the rebel and off on D90. The Rebel had auto lighting optimizer on and I'm not sure about D90.
If I recall correctly, most of sites didn't even mention anything about the difference Bright Mode vs. Neutral mode. Those who mentioned it didn't say much about it.
Now that all the major brands offer various image tweaks, review sites seem to mention the differences, but not enough although the difference is quite huge.
5D mk2, for an example, has its default Picture Style and High Speed Noise Reduction as Standard as well as having ALO on. The issue here is that Standard Picture Style smears fine detail for sake of noise. High Speed Noise Reduction is applied even if you use ISO 100 so that it smears detail while gaining nothing in terms of noise reduction. ALO can boost noise. Highlight Tone Priority is off and if it's on, it can greatly boost noise level.
If I take a sample image using all standard settings, you may think 5D mk2 produces images that doesn't show much detail. That was the case when 5D mk2 sample images hit the web. However, a few tweaks can produce very different images. For an example, for regular day light use, I use Neutral Picture Style with High Speed Noise Reduction and ALO off. This is because I want the most detail the camera can provide.
IMHO, reviewers should fully know how various settings can alter images and what the best combinations are on given cameras. Camera A might produces better results than B using default settings but what if camera B gives you more and better options that can outperform A? If that's the case, such information should be mentioned so that majority of people would not make mistake of thinking this camera is better than that one based on a few sample images.
- Aug 23, 2003
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Why place the blame on reviewers?
Isn't it the camera manufacturer's fault that the default settings show poorer quality? Why make those settings default?
As enthusiasts, it's hard for us to understand why people don't tweak their computers/cameras/etc. for maximum performance. But the fact remains, an overwhelming majority of DSLR users use their cameras with the default/automatic settings. So DPReview is in fact correct when they mention "that's how most people will use it".
This is no different than a computer hardware reviewer evaluating a piece of computer hardware straight out of the box. Sure you can use tweaked/hacked drivers, change the software configuration, overclock the hardware, etc. for more performance, but that's not how they benchmark hardware. The same applies for the camera industry.
Isn't it the camera manufacturer's fault that the default settings show poorer quality? Why make those settings default?
As enthusiasts, it's hard for us to understand why people don't tweak their computers/cameras/etc. for maximum performance. But the fact remains, an overwhelming majority of DSLR users use their cameras with the default/automatic settings. So DPReview is in fact correct when they mention "that's how most people will use it".
This is no different than a computer hardware reviewer evaluating a piece of computer hardware straight out of the box. Sure you can use tweaked/hacked drivers, change the software configuration, overclock the hardware, etc. for more performance, but that's not how they benchmark hardware. The same applies for the camera industry.
- Aug 23, 2003
- 25,375
- 142
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Reviewers have to establish a baseline method for doing reviews that can apply to every item they review.
One camera might produce the best ratio of detail/noise with NR MEDIUM, while another may have the best ratio with NR LOW. One camera might clip highlights without HTP/DLighting enabled, but shadow noise increases as a result. This doesn't even consider the fact that 'optimal' camera settings may change from scene to scene.
Then there will undoubtedly be uproar from the community when they find out the reviewer didn't use the 'right' set of options for one particular scene, or a better set of options was recently discovered and now the original review is flawed. Maybe Capture One Pro, DPP/NX2 or one of the plethora of free RAW converters does the best job with RAW conversion, but a majority of the population uses PS/LR with ACR for their workflow. Should the reviewer process their images using a dozen RAW converters, then give the camera a different score based on each one?
I think it's time we placed the blame for sub-par out-of-the-box performance where it belongs: with the manufacturer. Even semi-pro cameras like the 5D2 have consumer-level JPEG output; Canon thinks that people buying a $2700 full-frame body want detail-killing noise reduction in their JPEGs at every ISO setting.
Can't believe this is only $900, I almost wish it was higher so I wouldn't feel so bad about my recent XSi purchase...
The problem is that most of people think what they see is what they get. Even worse, people make judgements based on a few images. That happens everywhere including what happened right here. How can one say this camera A is better than B because of one sample picture? I don't know but that's what's been happening.
What's more striking is that those are the people who are eager to do pixel-peeping.
Average joe using the camera as it is is one thing but it's quite strange how those pixel peepers would examine images and come with a conclusion without considering obvious factors.
A good reviewer would and should point out how various settings come into play regardless how average Joe will use his camera. Let's take a look at DPreview, they are willing to put up several pages of very detailed inspections that average Joe wouldn't even understand. Why didn't they add at least a page explaning how things can be different. That was one thing I didn't like about DPreview but at least they're trying to experiment with different setting than factory default mode.
Also, such default settings don't necessarily give "poorer quality." It's only poorer quality in the lab. Average Joe aren't pixel-peepers and what they gain is actually higher than what they lose because they don't know or care what they're losing. ALO, for an example, is not something I'd use because I know what I'm going after but for those who don't know much about zone system can benefit greatly from it. Too bad that, in a way, requires noise reduction even on ISO 100. However, it's not like those Average Joe will notice it.
Now that more novices are buying DSLRs, we see more companies put default settings for those. I don't and can't blame camera manufactures knowing that they now make cameras for everybody and that the default setting they chose is geared toward to fit every possible situations. I mean, why should I blame manufactures? It's not like they're only forcing me to use settings geared toward novices. All it takes is little knowledge and a few clicks on the button. In fact, I think they should have default settings geard toward novices because those are people without knowledge and things should be easy for them in every situations though it won't shine in the lab and in the eyes of pixel-peepers.
IMHO, reviewing a camera shouldn't be done in the eye level of novices. One important aspects of review is to inform users. If they ignore various factors, they're eliminating chances of novices to learn, adpot and grow. Again, IMHO, it's good that camera manufactures have their default setting for novices but reviwers and enthusiasts shouldn't judge images based on a such setting. Why? Because we aren't clueless noobs to come up with such a narrow conclusion. Because we know those setting aren't for us. I mean, what's the point of intensive pixel-peeping? Is it for novices? No, it's for enthusiasts who know the difference.
It's not like overclocking or tweaking your computer. It's more like learning how to drive and how your car works.
ultimatebob
Lifer
- Jul 1, 2001
- 25,134
- 2,450
- 126
Why is everyone complaining about the lack of stereo sound and 30fps 1080p video capture on this thing? It's an SLR camera, for pete's sake, not a frigging camcorder. If you really wanna take decent quality full HD resolution movies, you should be using a video camera anyway.
I don't know... maybe I'm turning into one of those crotchety old camera traditionalists who still think that photos still look better on film
Originally posted by: ultimatebob
Why is everyone complaining about the lack of stereo sound and 30fps 1080p video capture on this thing? It's an SLR camera, for pete's sake, not a frigging camcorder. If you really wanna take decent quality full HD resolution movies, you should be using a video camera anyway.
I don't know... maybe I'm turning into one of those crotchety old camera traditionalists who still think that photos still look better on film
to be honest, for some reason I thought the 5dmkii and d90 had stereo... it's just the 5dmkii has an external input.
and why complaining? because I can't use my lenses on my camcorder and want a cool toy =) the 20fps thing is more of a wtf... why even offer 1080p? pure marketing gimmick.
and b&w photos do look better on film still... but digital is just sooo much faster to work with =)
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