Canadian Prof. Warns US Democracy Could Collapse by 2025

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
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A Canadian political scientist is warning his fellow countrymen that they may need to "Build the Wall" or otherwise take steps to protect against US political instability or violent civil war.

He thinks the US is already headed towards a Weimar-style republic with a demoralized populace after losing a war, weakened institutions, rising inflation and the pall of the pandemic. By 2030, we could be living in a New Reich led by a permanent fascist dictator.


I think if this happens, Canada has an uphill battle defending against the same sickness spreading at home, due to the accessibility of American right wing media and the current outsized influence that our media wields in Canada.

--

A terrible storm is coming from the south, and Canada is woefully unprepared. Over the past year we’ve turned our attention inward, distracted by the challenges of COVID-19, reconciliation, and the accelerating effects of climate change. But now we must focus on the urgent problem of what to do about the likely unravelling of democracy in the United States.

We need to start by fully recognizing the magnitude of the danger. If Mr. Trump is re-elected, even under the more-optimistic scenarios the economic and political risks to our country will be innumerable. Driven by aggressive, reactive nationalism, Mr. Trump “could isolate Canada continentally,” as one of my interlocutors put it euphemistically.

Under the less-optimistic scenarios, the risks to our country in their cumulative effect could easily be existential, far greater than any in our federation’s history. What happens, for instance, if high-profile political refugees fleeing persecution arrive in our country, and the U.S. regime demands them back. Do we comply?

In this context, it’s worth noting the words of Dmitry Muratov, the courageous Russian journalist who remains one of the few independent voices standing up to Mr. Putin and who just received the Nobel Prize for Peace. At a news conference after the awards ceremony in Oslo, as Russian troops and armour were massing on Ukraine’s borders, Mr. Muratov spoke of the iron link between authoritarianism and war. “Disbelief in democracy means that the countries that have abandoned it will get a dictator,” he said. “And where there is a dictatorship, there is a war. If we refuse democracy, we agree to war.”

Canada is not powerless in the face of these forces, at least not yet. Among other things, over three-quarters of a million Canadian emigrants live in the United States – many highly placed and influential – and together they’re a mass of people who could appreciably tilt the outcome of coming elections and the broader dynamics of the country’s political process.

But here’s my key recommendation: The Prime Minister should immediately convene a standing, non-partisan Parliamentary committee with representatives from the five sitting parties, all with full security clearances. It should be understood that this committee will continue to operate in coming years, regardless of changes in federal government. It should receive regular intelligence analyses and briefings by Canadian experts on political and social developments in the United States and their implications for democratic failure there. And it should be charged with providing the federal government with continuing, specific guidance as to how to prepare for and respond to that failure, should it occur.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
12,532
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Yeah, the US does look like it's in a kind of "Weimar phase". It's not a foregone conclusion that it will progress to the next step, though.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
26,159
33,087
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It does look like the GQP cult is trying to achieve that, they just aren't interested in American democracy if they don't get to be in charge. Let's hope this 1/6 Commission ends in the 14th being used, generously.

He put a serious dent in his support from the crazies with his vaccine comments recently. Was actually surprised to see so many of his 'faithful' react like he just punched them in the nuts with a tiny fist.

Also, I know plenty of Canadians and have to say, you guys already have people just as sorry and sick as American Trumpists. They act like they get to vote in American elections, watch Faux religiously, gleefully regurgitate the same GQP horseshit as their American counterparts. Your up hill battle already started.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
68,036
25,136
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A super majority on the Supreme Court distains democracy so there is nothing to restrain the fascists.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
26,159
33,087
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Biden controlling the military is a bit of a restraint. Even Trump's most ardent nutjobs feel like he betrayed them. That loss of support is important when the bulk of your fans are spineless cowards. The other 70% of the country can't stand Trump and his lackeys. I wouldn't say the road to fascism is clear of obstacles just yet.

8SKPCwG.jpeg


The biggest threat to voting rights is indeed the SCOTUS though. Anyone who says different is either pro fascism and hates democracy, or has been stuck under a rock for the last >5 years.
 
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Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
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An interesting comment on that article.

Had I heard this just 5 years ago I would have immediately rejected it.

Now...

"The biggest problem right now in the US and other democracies is the proliferation of disinformation through social media and the consolidation of legacy media into fewer and fewer hands. There was a direct connection between the birth of broadcast radio and the rise of authoritarian states such as Italy, Germany, etc about 30 years later. History is now repeating itself. It's now been around 30 years since the world wide web was developed at CERN (the internet is older but wasn't available to the general public) and now we are in the cusp of dictatorship in the US. The world wide web must now be regulated in the same way that radio broadcasting had to be regulated in the first half of the 1900s."
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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An interesting comment on that article.

Had I heard this just 5 years ago I would have immediately rejected it.

Now...

"The biggest problem right now in the US and other democracies is the proliferation of disinformation through social media and the consolidation of legacy media into fewer and fewer hands. There was a direct connection between the birth of broadcast radio and the rise of authoritarian states such as Italy, Germany, etc about 30 years later. History is now repeating itself. It's now been around 30 years since the world wide web was developed at CERN (the internet is older but wasn't available to the general public) and now we are in the cusp of dictatorship in the US. The world wide web must now be regulated in the same way that radio broadcasting had to be regulated in the first half of the 1900s."
Regulating it in the same way is impossible. Broadcast had large infrastructure requirements so there were few players and it was easily regulated. The internet can be accessed by anyone and information can be widely broadcast by anyone. How would you regulate...well...everyone in that way? Are you suggesting we try and emulate China?
 
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gothuevos

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2010
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Biden controlling the military is a bit of a restraint. Even Trump's most ardent nutjobs feel like he betrayed them. That loss of support is important when the bulk of your fans are spineless cowards. The other 70% of the country can't stand Trump and his lackeys. I wouldn't say the road to fascism is clear of obstacles just yet.

8SKPCwG.jpeg


The biggest threat to voting rights is indeed the SCOTUS though. Anyone who says different is either pro fascism and hates democracy, or has been stuck under a rock for the last 5 years.

Yet it feels like the 30% controls all the important government apparatuses, from key state legislatures all the way to the SCOTUS.

People scoff at MTG and her national divorce comments, but we have already quickly arrived at a place where half of the country does not want to be governed by the other half. Some for more legitimate reasons than others.

So what is a realistic path forward that avoids bloodshed and avoids installing permanent authoritarian rule? Voting, even in record numbers, doesn't seem to matter anymore.

Honestly the next 20-30 years look pretty grim. More climate catastrophes = more climate refugees = more social unrest = economic disparities = more upheaval = strongmen take over or society just collapses completely.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
26,159
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Yet it feels like the 30% controls all the important government apparatuses, from key state legislatures all the way to the SCOTUS.

People scoff at MTG and her national divorce comments, but we have already quickly arrived at a place where half of the country does not want to be governed by the other half. Some for more legitimate reasons than others.

So what is a realistic path forward that avoids bloodshed and avoids installing permanent authoritarian rule? Voting, even in record numbers, doesn't seem to matter anymore.

Honestly the next 20-30 years look pretty grim. More climate catastrophes = more climate refugees = more social unrest = economic disparities = more upheaval = strongmen take over or society just collapses completely.

Actually I scoff at you mimicking the math fail of the GQP, even after you acknowledge they are only 30% of the pop. Maybe just stick to your normal doom and gloom routine?
 
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gothuevos

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2010
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Actually I scoff at you mimicking the math fail of the GQP, even after you acknowledge they are only 30% of the pop. Maybe just stick to your normal doom and gloom routine?

,30% that again controls all the important government levers, about to gain more power, and contain most of the population most willing and open to using violence to advance their political goals.

But keep thinking that they don't have any power.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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,30% that again controls all the important government levers, about to gain more power, and contain most of the population most willing and open to using violence to advance their political goals.

But keep thinking that they don't have any power.
How on earth can you say they control all the important levers when they don’t control even a single branch of the federal government?
 
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gothuevos

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Jul 28, 2010
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How on earth can you say they control all the important levers when they don’t control even a single branch of the federal government?

Key state legislatures.

SCOTUS.

And soon to be at least the House.

And the make-up of the groups is important, too. That 70% on paper starts to look less impressive when you consider that group is made up of a lot of soccer moms, college kids and pacifists in general. I don't mean this as an insult, I'm in that group too. We'd just get trampled on.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
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I feel like Dr Strange going through all the end game variables. I just... don't understand what the end game looks like for people so destined to crumble our country. And sadly I don't think many of them have really taken the time to consider it either.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
57,458
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I feel like Dr Strange going through all the end game variables. I just... don't understand what the end game looks like for people so destined to crumble our country. And sadly I don't think many of them have really taken the time to consider it either.
A significant chunk of them are evangelicals who would prefer a fascist theocracy, at least until the End Times finally start, and they don't care what's left behind...
 
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vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
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A significant chunk of them are evangelicals who would prefer a fascist theocracy, at least until the End Times finally start, and they don't care what's left behind...

I more just question the money side of this... when things start to crumble and the US economy goes from a rolling inferno to a half stamped out campfire will the business class enablers of this intervene before it gets to that point?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
82,223
44,995
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Key state legislatures.

SCOTUS.

And soon to be at least the House.

And the make-up of the groups is important, too. That 70% on paper starts to look less impressive when you consider that group is made up of a lot of soccer moms, college kids and pacifists in general. I don't mean this as an insult, I'm in that group too. We'd just get trampled on.
So in other words not all the important levers of government? After all, if the House is important when the GOP controls it then it's important when the Democrats control it.

Not to mention the Democrats control by far the most powerful political office not just in the country but on the planet. That seems pretty important to me!
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
31,147
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i actually don't think trump is going to get the nomination in 2024 even if he does run. look at how irrelevant he is now - he endorsed vaccines and got boo'd. he's failed the purity test. I think DeSantis will take up the reigns but actually be competent where Trump wasn't, which is a much scarier thought. 2024 is going to be a real bellwether for the strength of durability of american democracy. we're hanging on by a thread as it stands...
 
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nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
57,458
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I more just question the money side of this... when things start to crumble and the US economy goes from a rolling inferno to a half stamped out campfire will the business class enablers of this intervene before it gets to that point?
I guess that's a valid viewpoint, guess it will depend on how they can best profit from it, maybe letting it crumble so they can buy the dip and the rest of the country before building it back up would work to their advantage. Just think of all those national and state parks waiting to be plundered...
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
31,147
9,232
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I guess that's a valid viewpoint, guess it will depend on how they can best profit from it, maybe letting it crumble so they can buy the dip and the rest of the country before building it back up would work to their advantage. Just think of all those national and state parks waiting to be plundered...
it hurts thinking about this, because i know businesses would absolutely burn, slash, mine, drill, and otherwise destroy all the parks if it meant they got a few more dollars. the social and ecological loss would be devastating.
 
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Indus

Diamond Member
May 11, 2002
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Juicy part from the article:

since 2016 we’ve learned that early optimism about the resilience of U.S. democracy was based on two false assumptions: “First, that American institutions would be strong enough to easily withstand efforts to subvert them; and second, that the vast majority of people will act rationally and be drawn to the political centre, so that it’s impossible for extremist groups to take over.”

But especially after the 2020 election, Dr. Goldstone said, we’ve seen that core institutions – from the Justice Department to county election boards – are susceptible to pressure. They’ve barely held firm. “We’ve also learned that the reasonable majority can be frightened and silenced if caught between extremes, while many others can be captured by mass delusions.” And to his surprise “moderate GOP leaders have either been forced out of the party or acquiesced to a party leadership that embraces lies and anti-democratic actions.”



Yep!
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
26,159
33,087
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How on earth can you say they control all the important levers when they don’t control even a single branch of the federal government?

I'm talking deeper than that. Republicans haven't represented a majority of the country since 1996 IIRC. These days it is nowhere near close. 70ish % of GDP comes from blue counties too if I recall.

No matter. Eeyore here is pretending I denied there's risk, even after I cited the road to fascism we are on in post #5.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
22,779
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i actually don't think trump is going to get the nomination in 2024 even if he does run. look at how irrelevant he is now - he endorsed vaccines and got boo'd. he's failed the purity test. I think DeSantis will take up the reigns but actually be competent where Trump wasn't, which is a much scarier thought. 2024 is going to be a real bellwether for the strength of durability of american democracy. we're hanging on by a thread as it stands...
Yea, it's scary, DeSantis is actually a real politician, and know how its done. Thankfully Trump is a complete buffoon when it comes to politics. He's just a cult leader.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
35,011
26,056
136
i actually don't think trump is going to get the nomination in 2024 even if he does run. look at how irrelevant he is now - he endorsed vaccines and got boo'd. he's failed the purity test. I think DeSantis will take up the reigns but actually be competent where Trump wasn't, which is a much scarier thought. 2024 is going to be a real bellwether for the strength of durability of american democracy. we're hanging on by a thread as it stands...
That will be interesting to watch him navigate.

He can't take on Trump directly because he needs his followers.
He can't just be Baby Trump because we already have Trump.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,672
5,875
136
Yea, it's scary, DeSantis is actually a real politician, and know how its done. Thankfully Trump is a complete buffoon when it comes to politics. He's just a cult leader.
Think of the worst situation, trump as a figurehead President and DeSantis as VP running things with a hand-picked cabinet.