Canadian JTF 2 sniper smashes longest kill record in Iraq

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J.Wilkins

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
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Not a problem at all. We don't know the exact ballistics for the cartridge used to make this shot so pulling numbers from a ballistic chart for the common military spec ball cartridge is a good starting point.

The article you quoted in the same post explains factory loaded, COMMON, off the shelf ammo was used!

At 2000 yards velocity has dropped by 2/3rds or 1000 fps. One could then guess at 3520 yards the velocity being in the 200-400 fps range give or take.

At 2000 yards the M33 Ball cartridge has a bullet drop of around 250 feet. At the record distance of 3520 yards one could imagine what the drop is.

We know the exact ballistics, this was a standard .50BMG bullet and no, it would not be 200-400fps at that range, it would be 600-800fps at that range using the TAC-50.

The movement of the earth would shift the target 10 yards, the curvature of the earth would actually hold the bullet as long as it's spinning so it travels faster.

In 1999 using a .460 sniper rifle a British boy put 12 rounds through a target 20x20cm's wide 3500 (meters) miles away using a palm pilot and simple metero gadget system without a spotter.

The target was a fully protected ballistics dummy, the shots went right through it and landed about a hundred meters behind the target.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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We know the exact ballistics, this was a standard .50BMG bullet and no, it would not be 200-400fps at that range, it would be 600-800fps at that range using the TAC-50.

The movement of the earth would shift the target 10 yards, the curvature of the earth would actually hold the bullet as long as it's spinning so it travels faster.

In 1999 using a .460 sniper rifle a British boy put 12 rounds through a target 20x20cm's wide 3500 miles away using a palm pilot and simple metero gadget system without a spotter.

The target was a fully protected ballistics dummy, the shots went right through it and landed about a hundred meters behind the target.


Might want to look at that distance for the 460 again ;)
 

J.Wilkins

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
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Might want to look at that distance for the 460 again ;)

How about no? The bullet type is used today by the British JTF and is a NG/NMG mix bullet and the system was evolved to include a more modern computer.

The original is the basis of all modern sniper systems.
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
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"In aeronautics, transonic refers to the condition of flight in which a range of velocities of airflow exist surrounding and flowing past an air vehicle or an airfoil that are concurrently below, at, and above the speed of sound in the range of Mach0.8 to 1.0, i.e. 965–1,236 km/h (600–768 mph) at sea level. This condition depends not only on the travel speed of the craft, but also on the temperature of the airflow in the vehicle's local environment. It is formally defined as the range of speeds between the critical Mach number, when some parts of the airflow over an air vehicle or airfoil are supersonic, and a higher speed, typically near Mach 1.2, when most of the airflow is supersonic. Between these speeds some of the airflow is supersonic, but a significant fraction is not.
You said 343 was the speed of sound. I said a range of 300-400."

300/343 = .87 Mach
400/343 = 1.16 Mach

Both are squarely in the transonic zone. When I refer to "supersonic", I'm referring to the scientific term as applied to aeronautics. You are just trivially using it as a term people use "faster than sound". You're like Trump, a know nothing that likes to bloviate and tell people stories. Nice!


Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transonic

In the future, I'd like to see you avoid these topics. It's somewhat embarrassing to have to keep correcting you ;)
I love self-ownage. Before you try to lecture others, work on developing the reading skills to comprehend what your own sources say. I'll try to help you out with the science a bit (no charge). The speed of sound through air (or any other medium for that matter) depends on many variables, a big one being the density of the air. Things like elevation and temperature both influence the speed of sound in air. Now in the case of an airplane, the wings create high pressure beneath the wing and low pressure above the wing, the difference creating the net force that counteracts gravity. Because these pressures are significantly different in the case of an airplane, it creates a fairly unique situation, since the speed of sound below the wing is faster than the speed of sound above the wing.

Transonic is when the airplane is flying at a speed that is simultaneously above, at, and below the speed of sound (exactly as your reference states). Bullets on the other hand are not designed to create pressure differentials (otherwise they would curve). Therefore, the bullet will not be travelling transonically.
 
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FIVR

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2016
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I love self-ownage. Before you try to lecture others, work on developing the reading skills to comprehend what your own sources say. I'll try to help you out with the science a bit (no charge). The speed of sound through air (or any other medium for that matter) depends on many variables, a big one being the density of the air. Things like elevation and temperature both influence the speed of sound in air. Now in the case of an airplane, the wings create high pressure beneath the wing and low pressure above the wing, the difference creating the net force that counteracts gravity. Because these pressures are significantly different in the case of an airplane, it creates a fairly unique situation, since the speed of sound below the wing is faster than the speed of sound above the wing.

Transonic is when the airplane is flying at a speed that is simultaneously above, at, and below the speed of sound (exactly as your reference states). Bullets on the other hand are not designed to create pressure differentials (otherwise they would curve). Therefore, the bullet will not be travelling transonically.

Lmao I love self-ownage too! Thank you for bringing me some this morning!



It is funny to see somebody so clueless come into a thread, and bring their "vast knowledge" to bear... only to end up looking like a total idiot. That's where you are, right now. Do you understand that the term transonic applies to any vehicle flying through the atmosphere, whether or not it is a "plane"? Lol. What a retard you are!



Here is an article that talks about the transonic effects on bullet trajectories. I know you won't read it, but if you could it would teach you a lot. It also shows, very clearly, that you are completely wrong (and also that Hyabusa Ryder is similarly wrong) about 300-400m/s being "supersonic", or that "transonic" only applies to aircraft. It's pretty simple, dude... any vehicle or object flying through the atmosphere creates different patterns of subsonic and supersonic airflow around it as it flies in the range of .8 to 1.2 times the speed of sound. That is why you use the term "transonic" to describe objects traveling through the atmosphere at speeds of 300-400m/s. It is because the airflow around a bullet at those speeds cannot be described as "subsonic" or "supersonic"... because THEY AREN'T SUBSONIC OR SUPERSONIC, THEY ARE TRANSONIC.


https://thearmsguide.com/5348/long-range-shooting-external-ballistics-transonic-region/


Have a good day! LOL!
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
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Lmao I love self-ownage too! Thank you for bringing me some this morning!



It is funny to see somebody so clueless come into a thread, and bring their "vast knowledge" to bear... only to end up looking like a total idiot. That's where you are, right now. Do you understand that the term transonic applies to any vehicle flying through the atmosphere, whether or not it is a "plane"? Lol. What a retard you are!



Here is an article that talks about the transonic effects on bullet trajectories. I know you won't read it, but if you could it would teach you a lot. It also shows, very clearly, that you are completely wrong (and also that Hyabusa Ryder is similarly wrong) about 300-400m/s being "supersonic", or that "transonic" only applies to aircraft. It's pretty simple, dude... any vehicle or object flying through the atmosphere creates different patterns of subsonic and supersonic airflow around it as it flies in the range of .8 to 1.2 times the speed of sound. That is why you use the term "transonic" to describe objects traveling through the atmosphere at speeds of 300-400m/s. It is because the airflow around a bullet at those speeds cannot be described as "subsonic" or "supersonic"... because THEY AREN'T SUBSONIC OR SUPERSONIC, THEY ARE TRANSONIC.


https://thearmsguide.com/5348/long-range-shooting-external-ballistics-transonic-region/


Have a good day! LOL!
Sorry dude, but it isn't as simple as you apparently think. Due to aircraft, many refer to 300-400 m/s as the transonic region of speed, which is accurate. However, it is not accurate to say that the bullet is necessarily travelling transonically within this region, other than for an extremely short time as it transitions from supersonic to subsonic since any pressure differences around a bullet will be very small. In addition, the fact that a bullet tends to lose accuracy when it makes the transition from supersonic to subsonic indicates the that the bullet was still travelling supersonically and not transonically. There are two separate ideas here. The first is the transonic region of speed. Just because an object is travelling within the transonic region of speed doesn't mean something is travelling transonically. I hope that isn't too much nuance for you.

Edit: Just thought it would also be fun to point out, in addition to demonstrating no understanding of the actual meaning of transonic, you also demonstrate in the same post you don't understand the meaning of self ownage. Look that one up and see if you can figure out how in no way is it even possible for my post to demonstrate self ownage.
 
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FIVR

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2016
3,753
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I'll just leave this here for the many retarded "experts" above to invalidate with their own (quite scientific) observations. You guys are hilarious! Keep on posting, please!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_ballistics

Transonic problem[edit]
When the velocity of a projectile fired at supersonic muzzle velocity approaches the speed of sound it enters the transonic region (about Mach 1.2–0.8). In the transonic region, the centre of pressure (CP) of most non spherical projectiles shifts forward as the projectile decelerates. That CP shift affects the (dynamic) stability of the projectile. If the projectile is not well stabilized, it can not remain pointing forward through the transonic region (the projectile starts to exhibit an unwanted precession or coning motion called limit cycle yaw that, if not damped out, can eventually end in uncontrollable tumbling along the length axis). However, even if the projectile has sufficient stability (static and dynamic) to be able to fly through the transonic region and stays pointing forward, it is still affected. The erratic and sudden CP shift and (temporary) decrease of dynamic stability can cause significant dispersion (and hence significant accuracy decay), even if the projectile's flight becomes well behaved again when it enters the subsonic region. This makes accurately predicting the ballistic behavior of projectiles in the transonic region very difficult. Because of this, marksmen normally restrict themselves to engaging targets within the supersonic range of the projectile used.[note 1] In 2015 the American ballistician Bryan Litz introduced the "Extended Long Range" concept to define rifle shooting at ranges where supersonic fired (rifle) bullets enter the transonic region. According to Litz, "Extended Long Range starts whenever the bullet slows to its transonic range. As the bullet slows down to approach Mach 1, it starts to encounter transonic effects, which are more complex and difficult to account for, compared to the supersonic range where the bullet is relatively well-behaved."[40]

The ambient air density has a significant effect on dynamic stability during transonic transition. Though the ambient air density is a variable environmental factor, adverse transonic transition effects can be negated better by a projectile traveling through less dense air, than when traveling through denser air. Projectile or bullet length also affects limit cycle yaw. Longer projectiles experience more limit cycle yaw than shorter projectiles of the same diameter. Another feature of projectile design that has been identified as having an effect on the unwanted limit cycle yaw motion is the chamfer at the base of the projectile. At the very base, or heel of a projectile or bullet, there is a 0.25 to 0.50 mm (0.01 to 0.02 in) chamfer, or radius. The presence of this radius causes the projectile to fly with greater limit cycle yaw angles.[41] Rifling can also have a subtle effect on limit cycle yaw.[42] In general faster spinning projectiles experience less limit cycle yaw.

Should I post the wikipedia definition for "self ownage" too? I wonder if it's just a reference to @mect's anandtech profile.
 

J.Wilkins

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
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FIVR is an example of someone who knows just enough to get himself in trouble. Other countries spend quite a bit of $ compared to us in outfitting their snipers. They implement technology more quickly and they're insanely good at what they do.

He didn't even read the article he linked to:

"I said might because a bullet might eventually pass through the transonic region without any trouble. The ability of a bullet to pass through the transonic region is hard to predict because too many factors come in play—many of those factors are not measurable without specific equipment."

The bullet in this case is designed for minimal destabilization when transitioning from supersonic to subsonic speeds. And this shot itself owes more to the spotter and their gear than the rifle/shooter.

Yah, I've seen trajectory of those kinds of round in high winds and even when they go unstable in a gust they self correct and stabilize.

So very different than your average .308 or .223 round.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
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There's a bit of a kerfluffle about why Canadian soldiers are in Iraq in our Parliament, which I think is reasonable - at no point has our government stated that we're going to be in combat operations in that nation. It's a bit of a worrying trend that appears to be happening more and more lately. The people should at least know where their soldiers have been sent.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
31,657
48,383
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Maybe it's because the JTF make the Seals look like baywatch.

Doubtful, mostly because you have it backwards. Yes JTF is highly skilled, but pretending that skilled shooting and arctic warfare mastery makes them more grisly and unpleasant than DEVGRU types - who see themselves as modern Apache (and all that implies), equally happy to kill with edged weapons as they are with 'canoes' - it's a bit of a weak comparison. Let's not forget the difference in funding or access to battlefields between the two communities either, very relevant the last 50 years or so.

Be proud Canadians, you should be. Just don't let it go to your head. Let's keep some perspective here. JTF shouldn't have to worry about being investigated over mutilations and the taking of trophies. Be happy about that.
 
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