Can you work on any modern cars these days?

[z1ggy]

My wife's car nearly sh!t the bed a week or two ago, but we got lucky there was a relatively inexpensive fix. It's an 07 Chevy Impala and pretty easy to work on, but I am worried that newer cars these days are so integrated with electronics and whatnot, that even doing something simple like oil changes or brake changes won't be possible. If the car goes down, my concern is whatever we replace it with will end up at a dealer or shop for relatively simple jobs.

What makes/models that are made in the last few years are still easy to maintain on your own? FWIW, we were looking into RAV4's, CRV's, etc.

 

[OlyAR15]

I do maintenance on my two cars: ‘17 Civic and ‘17 NSX. So far that’s all they needed. If something seriously goes wrong, I’ll try diagnosing and fixing it myself. As long as it doesn’t require a Honda computer, it should be fine.

 

[pauldun170]

My wife's car nearly sh!t the bed a week or two ago, but we got lucky there was a relatively inexpensive fix. It's an 07 Chevy Impala and pretty easy to work on, but I am worried that newer cars these days are so integrated with electronics and whatnot, that even doing something simple like oil changes or brake changes won't be possible. If the car goes down, my concern is whatever we replace it with will end up at a dealer or shop for relatively simple jobs.

What makes/models that are made in the last few years are still easy to maintain on your own? FWIW, we were looking into RAV4's, CRV's, etc.

A 2022 Toyota\Honda\ is way easier to fix and maintain than most cars of the 80's with their rats nets of vacuum hoses.
After spending time under the hood of a couple of modern Toyotas, I'd take any of over whatever old car you want to toss out as "easy to work on"
Hell even my Ze German VW is easy do basic maintenance.

Majority of modern cars are fairly easy to maintain and a HELL of a lot easier to troubleshoot most things.

 

[mindless1]

Owner forums are a gold mine. Whatever you're considering, find a well populated forum where there are people making high quality posts and have access to information. Workshop Manuals, Wiring Diagrams, Youtube Videos, and peer support will be more useful than a Haynes or Chiltons manual. Most things that go wrong on a vehicle, it's already happened to someone else who decided to DIY the repair so you mostly need a sufficient pool of fellow owners for peer support.

Difficulty has a bit to do with how long you own the vehicle. Simpler wear items like brakes and oil changes are not too bad, but once the electronic subsystems go haywire and you need manufacturer specific trouble code, capable scanners, or expensive manufacturer specific equipment, then you're at the next level.

Not sure what paulldun170's issue is with vac lines. They may not look tidy but since when does it matter what under-hood looks like? They were great, more room to work and used far more standard (pieces of tubing) vac lines instead of proprietary pre-molded shapes of hoses and tubes that you may not be able to replace years later with generic hose from the auto parts store. It's not just ease, or even cost, but also availability in these modern times of supply shortages.

 

[pauldun170]

Owner forums are a gold mine. Whatever you're considering, find a well populated forum where there are people making high quality posts and have access to information. Workshop Manuals, Wiring Diagrams, Youtube Videos, and peer support will be more useful than a Haynes or Chiltons manual. Most things that go wrong on a vehicle, it's already happened to someone else who decided to DIY the repair so you mostly need a sufficient pool of fellow owners for peer support.

Difficulty has a bit to do with how long you own the vehicle. Simpler wear items like brakes and oil changes are not too bad, but once the electronic subsystems go haywire and you need manufacturer specific trouble code, capable scanners, or expensive manufacturer specific equipment, then you're at the next level.

Not sure what paulldun170's issue is with vac lines. They may not look tidy but since when does it matter what under-hood looks like? They were great, more room to work and used far more standard (pieces of tubing) vac lines instead of proprietary pre-molded shapes of hoses and tubes that you may not be able to replace years later with generic hose from the auto parts store. It's not just ease, or even cost, but also availability in these modern times of supply shortages.

I don't give a shit how they look.
Vacuum lines work great until age and leaks set in. I'll take a volt meter and code reader over a smoke machine any day.
You are going to get me ranting about carbs next. Especially in the ethanol all the things era

 

[NutBucket]

Until you've dealt with Honda carb setups you can't complain about vac lines (and I have not).

 

[pauldun170]

Until you've dealt with Honda carb setups you can't complain about vac lines (and I have not).

This actually made me laugh.

 

[pauldun170]

This actually made me laugh.

Take s me back when their were shops whose entire business model was around carb rebuilds.
Big old parking lot of g-bodies, Mitsubishis and Hondas waiting for service.

 

[mindless1]

I don't give a shit how they look.
Vacuum lines work great until age and leaks set in. I'll take a volt meter and code reader over a smoke machine any day.
You are going to get me ranting about carbs next. Especially in the ethanol all the things era

Newer vehicles (than '80s) still have vac lines, just hidden a little better and often more proprietary instead of standard tubing. The other alternative is more expensive, and just as much of a PITA to trace, electric servo motors/etc that don't necessarily generate any codes when they fail.

Carbs... I don't miss them at all.

 

[RLGL]

I take can care of any of them. One needs to have some background in working with the computer side. A DVM is your best friend.

 

[pauldun170]

Newer vehicles (than '80s) still have vac lines, just hidden a little better and often more proprietary instead of standard tubing. The other alternative is more expensive, and just as much of a PITA to trace, electric servo motors/etc that don't necessarily generate any codes when they fail.

Carbs... I don't miss them at all.

Was just checking out a friend's 09 Highlander when he noticed a couple of hoses that were dried out\cracked and split on the end.
After spending way to much time researching...
Damn vacuum hose. Hooked up to a vacuum switching line to control idle when you used the rear wiper or defogger (other wise the idle would drop 100rpm every time you used them).
Thats what added vacuum hoses to my recent shitlist.
Thinking they could have just done this though ECU.
Probably a good reason why they decided to go the vacuum route but it still earned a spot on my shit list.
Give me time...I'll find something else to be cranky at.

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

I do maintenance on my two cars: ‘17 Civic and ‘17 NSX. So far that’s all they needed. If something seriously goes wrong, I’ll try diagnosing and fixing it myself. As long as it doesn’t require a Honda computer, it should be fine.

There are entities that specialize in selling alternatives to the HDS setup Honda offers for servicing vehicles. I have an 18 Civic and not that long ago they got up new versions for the 10th gen platform.

I've been considering ordering one and seeing if it actually works. $100-200 to buy the right to repair your car seems like a worthwhile investment. That being said it's of extremely questionable legality. Hard to say it's ethically wrong when Honda blocks your right to repair behind a $6000 proprietary piece of hardware to interface with the car that requires an expensive subscription though.

That aside, I have done a ton of work on my Civic and I've been amazed most of the time how well designed and laid out everything is to make it easier to manufacture/assemble/repair. It's just stupid you can't do something simple like change your wheel size or tire type without that $6000 Honda computer to tell the TCM.

 

[Commodus]

I don't mind personal repairs becoming more difficult if the vehicles themselves generally need fewer repairs in the first place. That's frequently the case these days, but like Justinus pointed out, there are some silly arbitrary restrictions as well.

I can't help but wonder what the repair landscape will be like once EVs are in the majority. Not that they'll never need fixing, but their very nature removes some of the technical issues that plague ICE cars. Maintenance on an EV usually boils down to filling wiper fluid, checking tires and installing software updates.

 

[Dranoche]

There's very little that needs a proprietary interface/software to diagnose, and even fewer maintenance or repair items that need it. Reprogramming the ECM or TCM is generally going to be beyond right to repair.

A $30 OBDII scanner will more than cover most people for maintenance and repairs, even on newer vehicles. If the scanner can't read a manufacturer-specific code you can usually pull the code through the dash and then look it up.

More electronics is actually more sensors. More sensors is just more sensors. It can take longer to diagnose an issue because codes may only indicate a general circuit. It sucks, but you can still do it yourself. Between the FSM, enthusiast forums, and YouTube you should be able to fix just about anything if you're willing. Most vehicles at this point have manufacturer or engine specific tools for internal or timing work, but you can often find aftermarket versions for cheaper if you're actually digging that deep. If you're regularly swapping tires/wheels seasonally you can manage TPMS with $300-400 worth of gear.

Some manufacturers will continue to poorly locate oil filters, but an oil change will still just be an oil change. Also, don't buy Italian or British and you'll bypass 90% of potential reliability issues right at the start.

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

There's very little that needs a proprietary interface/software to diagnose, and even fewer maintenance or repair items that need it. Reprogramming the ECM or TCM is generally going to be beyond right to repair.

A $30 OBDII scanner will more than cover most people for maintenance and repairs, even on newer vehicles. If the scanner can't read a manufacturer-specific code you can usually pull the code through the dash and then look it up.

More electronics is actually more sensors. More sensors is just more sensors. It can take longer to diagnose an issue because codes may only indicate a general circuit. It sucks, but you can still do it yourself. Between the FSM, enthusiast forums, and YouTube you should be able to fix just about anything if you're willing. Most vehicles at this point have manufacturer or engine specific tools for internal or timing work, but you can often find aftermarket versions for cheaper if you're actually digging that deep. If you're regularly swapping tires/wheels seasonally you can manage TPMS with $300-400 worth of gear.

Some manufacturers will continue to poorly locate oil filters, but an oil change will still just be an oil change. Also, don't buy Italian or British and you'll bypass 90% of potential reliability issues right at the start.

I wasn't joking, 10th gen and newer honda civics (and probably other newer hondas) actually have the TCM programmed to your wheel size and tire type to determine proper friction coefficients and traction control intervention. And you can't update that without the honda HDS.

If it didn't potentially have enormous safety implications with regards to emergency braking, maneuvers, electronic stability control, electronic brake-force distribution, etc......

 

[IronWing]

The battery on my Buick Tourx died. The amount of crap GM put on top of the battery is ridiculous and all stuck on with little plastic tabs designed to break.

 

[z1ggy]

There's very little that needs a proprietary interface/software to diagnose, and even fewer maintenance or repair items that need it. Reprogramming the ECM or TCM is generally going to be beyond right to repair.

A $30 OBDII scanner will more than cover most people for maintenance and repairs, even on newer vehicles. If the scanner can't read a manufacturer-specific code you can usually pull the code through the dash and then look it up.

More electronics is actually more sensors. More sensors is just more sensors. It can take longer to diagnose an issue because codes may only indicate a general circuit. It sucks, but you can still do it yourself. Between the FSM, enthusiast forums, and YouTube you should be able to fix just about anything if you're willing. Most vehicles at this point have manufacturer or engine specific tools for internal or timing work, but you can often find aftermarket versions for cheaper if you're actually digging that deep. If you're regularly swapping tires/wheels seasonally you can manage TPMS with $300-400 worth of gear.

Some manufacturers will continue to poorly locate oil filters, but an oil change will still just be an oil change. Also, don't buy Italian or British and you'll bypass 90% of potential reliability issues right at the start.

Can you go into more detail on the TPMS aspect? We just moved to a much more mountain/rural area and I will likely be swapping tire sets for both myself and wife frequently. I used to always think I'd roll the dice and not get new sensors and just deal with the light being on at all times, but that was back in the day. Now with new cars, I figure it might mess with other systems or at least be way more annoying to have non-functional compared to my old 2007 Subaru.

 

[MtnMan]

 

[pauldun170]

Can you go into more detail on the TPMS aspect? We just moved to a much more mountain/rural area and I will likely be swapping tire sets for both myself and wife frequently. I used to always think I'd roll the dice and not get new sensors and just deal with the light being on at all times, but that was back in the day. Now with new cars, I figure it might mess with other systems or at least be way more annoying to have non-functional compared to my old 2007 Subaru.

Not all cars have sensors. Some use rotational speed to figure out pressure changes.

 

[z1ggy]

Not all cars have sensors. Some use rotational speed to figure out pressure changes.

How can I find that out from a car's spec sheet?

 

[Leymenaide]

When I turned 16 in the 60's a guy wasn't a guy if he had not rebuilt his car's engine. Mine a 65 Chevy Impala ss with a 283.

What is the equivalent act of manhood today?

 

[pauldun170]

How can I find that out from a car's spec sheet?

Types

Tire Pressure Sensor: TPMS | Tires Plus

Learn about your vehicle tire pressure sensor and how you can check your tire pressure monitoring system today!

www.tiresplus.com

As for how you can find out, you'll need to dig for that info for each individual car.
TPMS is mandatory on all cars made after 2K something so its not worth wasting time on.
Basing you purchasing decision on the tire pressure monitoring system type is not something you should be doing.

Your concern about maintaining modern cars is basically word for word for posts on old forums back in 2007. And 2000. And back in the 90's when they switched to obdii and emissions tests requiring (gasp) computers to be hooked up.

The reality is that cars are as serviceable today as they were 5, 10, 20 years ago.
You can hop on youtube and pull up any recent car and watch basic maintenance videos.
Oil change on a Rav 4

Brake job on a CRV

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

When I turned 16 in the 60's a guy wasn't a guy if he had not rebuilt his car's engine. Mine a 65 Chevy Impala ss with a 283.

What is the equivalent act of manhood today?

Changing your own clutch is a pretty basic job relative to rebuilding an engine but for most modern cars it's still a pile of work, especially FWD. I'd probably say that - especially given that means you're driving a manual transmission as well.

Although at this point I'm not really afraid of doing much on my 2018 Honda. I've already resigned to rebuilding the transmission myself with the Honda performance gears if it shears some teeth given I'm running a tune with +100ftlb of torque.

Couldn't have done the clutch myself if I hadn't changed the clutch with dad on my first car 20 years ago.

 

[Dranoche]

I wasn't joking, 10th gen and newer honda civics (and probably other newer hondas) actually have the TCM programmed to your wheel size and tire type to determine proper friction coefficients and traction control intervention. And you can't update that without the honda HDS.

If it didn't potentially have enormous safety implications with regards to emergency braking, maneuvers, electronic stability control, electronic brake-force distribution, etc......

Shouldn't there be a size range where it will relearn on it's own? And then only throw a code if you're outside that range. It sucks you can't do that on your own, but I understand why they would generally want to prevent people from reprogramming that.

Not all cars have sensors. Some use rotational speed to figure out pressure changes.

Indirect TPMS. I think most vehicles from Honda and maybe Mazda use indirect. Audi might use them. I know other manufacturers had a mix of direct and indirect systems on different models around the time that the TPMS requirements from the TREAD Act went into effect. Couldn't find a comprehensive list anywhere, but I believe most makes currently use direct.

How can I find that out from a car's spec sheet?

All cars sold in the US starting in late 2007 are required to have TPMS per the TREAD Act enacted in 2000. For something older you would need to check the manual.

Can you go into more detail on the TPMS aspect? We just moved to a much more mountain/rural area and I will likely be swapping tire sets for both myself and wife frequently. I used to always think I'd roll the dice and not get new sensors and just deal with the light being on at all times, but that was back in the day. Now with new cars, I figure it might mess with other systems or at least be way more annoying to have non-functional compared to my old 2007 Subaru.

Ateq and Autel have a number of devices for programming new TPMS or storing ID's and resetting the system for swapping summer/winter tires, but you need to confirm that any device you get will work with the sensors you have. If you have OEM sensors things should go smooth, but some aftermarket sensors may require a specific tool to read and/or program. Probably best off checking owner forums to see what other people have used for your model and year. Alternatively, you could look at having a tire shop clone the sensors between the two sets.

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

Shouldn't there be a size range where it will relearn on it's own? And then only throw a code if you're outside that range. It sucks you can't do that on your own, but I understand why they would generally want to prevent people from reprogramming that.

Nope. It's specific to the inch size of the wheel and the type of tire (summer, all season, winter, etc). Seems easy enough to have been a menu item in the vehicle's settings accessible through infotainment, the same way that TPMS reprogramming/relearning, maintenance updates, etc. are. But it's not. Gotta pay the dealership $100 just to tell your car you got better tires or different wheels. A lot of people ignore it, but the people who have made changes to their configuration and driven the car before and after the TCM update have indicated there's a considerable improvement in traction control/etc. once the update has been done.

Other car manufacturers require their proprietary tool to tell your car you've changed the battery so it changes its charging profile. I've heard of batteries dying early because this procedure wasn't done when replacing old batteries and the charging system not treating the new batteries correctly. It's basic maintenance/wear item work like this that anyone can do that really, really frustrates when auto manufacturers lock it behind thousands of dollars in proprietary tools.