Can you prove the Bible has fallacies?

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: sniperruff
for starters, it has no mention of a dinosaur, and we all know dinosaurs existed.

There're a few passages that refer to gigantic beasts. I think the names were "Behemoth" (dont' remmeber what this was) and "Leviathan", a sea monster. Either Job or Isaiah I think spoke of these in the bible. Ah here we go, comes with the direct references: Leviathan
Behemoth

Likely they became extinct some time after the flood....only having 2 of each would be pretty slimt chances of survival for something so large that moss could grow on its legs.

 

[datalink7]

I could bring this thread to its knees by telling one little joke... about a snake... and a lever...

 

[VenomXTF]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: VenomXTF
God is all powerful, can he create a rock that he cannot lift? Give a good reason for your answer.

No. Not due to lack of ability to create a rock, but because the very elements that compose the rock obey the will of God. Therefore, any rock that he could create would obey his commands and therefore lift.

That's one answer, here's another. Trying to answer such a question is foolish as it only shows the limits of human logic. Its like asking "can God make a square a circle but it both be a square and a circle at the same time? He can't? Well he must not be God then!" No of course not, nobody can do that, for such a thing does not exist. Logic does not allow for such an absurdity.

Then please provide me your same logical evidence for God existing.

engineer,
So then he cannot create a rock that's unliftable?

Here's another one, you cannot have free will and God be all powerful. If God gives you the power to have your own will and do as you want, then he is not all powerful. That's logic for you.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: VenomXTF

Originally posted by: soccerballtux

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: VenomXTF
God is all powerful, can he create a rock that he cannot lift? Give a good reason for your answer.

No. Not due to lack of ability to create a rock, but because the very elements that compose the rock obey the will of God. Therefore, any rock that he could create would obey his commands and therefore lift.

That's one answer, here's another. Trying to answer such a question is foolish as it only shows the limits of human logic. Its like asking "can God make a square a circle but it both be a square and a circle at the same time? He can't? Well he must not be God then!" No of course not, nobody can do that, for such a thing does not exist. Logic does not allow for such an absurdity.

Then please provide me your same logical evidence for God existing.

engineer,
So then he cannot create a rock that's unliftable?

Here's another one, you cannot have free will and God be all powerful. If God gives you the power to have your own will and do as you want, then he is not all powerful. That's logic for you.

Ah, the question everyone thinks disproves God. I'll answer your question when you stop evaluating God with logic. If we do that, God isn't God, logic is. And that does not make sense.

As for free will vs God being all powerful...I don't know. In our finite minds it is only to be expected that we cannot wrap our minds around something infinite. To expect to be able to do so is only setting oneself up for failure. But I think it goes something like God in his absolute power decided to give us a choice to choose him. He still knows what we will choose, without choosing for us, because he is outside of time and sees all our choices at once. I don't worry about that one becuase it makes no difference in how I live-- the gospel is clearly presented as if we had a choice about it, so I treate it that way and move on.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: VenomXTF

Then please provide me your same logical evidence for God existing.

engineer,
So then he cannot create a rock that's unliftable?

No, he cannot create a rock that is unliftable for the reasons I already expressed. Is it because he doesn't have the power? No. It is because the elements obey him. So what's you point? That doesn't affect his ability to be almighty, but actually shows how powerful he truely is, being that even the elements themselves obey him.

Here's another one, you cannot have free will and God be all powerful. If God gives you the power to have your own will and do as you want, then he is not all powerful. That's logic for you.

No, it just shows that he respects people enough to not force anything upon them. Doesn't say he doesn't have the power, only that he won't use it. Could God force us to do something? Sure, I guess it's possible. Would he? No. Again, not because he can't, but because he won't. There is a big difference there.

One must remember that God is subject to the same laws he gives us. Rather than taking power away from us, it is what provides him with the power he has. What gave Christ the power to redeem us from sin was this obedience to the law. It's the same for God, only on a bit higher level even.

 

[VenomXTF]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux

Originally posted by: VenomXTF

Originally posted by: soccerballtux

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: VenomXTF
God is all powerful, can he create a rock that he cannot lift? Give a good reason for your answer.

No. Not due to lack of ability to create a rock, but because the very elements that compose the rock obey the will of God. Therefore, any rock that he could create would obey his commands and therefore lift.

That's one answer, here's another. Trying to answer such a question is foolish as it only shows the limits of human logic. Its like asking "can God make a square a circle but it both be a square and a circle at the same time? He can't? Well he must not be God then!" No of course not, nobody can do that, for such a thing does not exist. Logic does not allow for such an absurdity.

Then please provide me your same logical evidence for God existing.

engineer,
So then he cannot create a rock that's unliftable?

Here's another one, you cannot have free will and God be all powerful. If God gives you the power to have your own will and do as you want, then he is not all powerful. That's logic for you.

Ah, the question everyone thinks disproves God. I'll answer your question when you stop evaluating God with logic. If we do that, God isn't God, logic is. And that does not make sense.

As for free will vs God being all powerful...I don't know. In our finite minds it is only to be expected that we cannot wrap our minds around something infinite. To expect to be able to do so is only setting oneself up for failure. But I think it goes something like God in his absolute power decided to give us a choice to choose him. He still knows what we will choose, without choosing for us, because he is outside of time and sees all our choices at once. I don't worry about that one becuase it makes no difference in how I live-- the gospel is clearly presented as if we had a choice about it, so I treate it that way and move on.

And is exactly why God, why religion, was created. Because the limitations of the human knowledge/mind. Study some anthropology/history of religion origins.

Your friend goes on talking about "laws". Well either logic is a law God must follow or it is not. Either way you're wrong.

 

[Rip the Jacker]

Originally posted by: FrankyJunior
Why do you have ti DISprove something that has never been PROVEn in the first place?

F
T
W

 

[Rip the Jacker]

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: RCN

Originally posted by: MrWizzard

You can find more here:

Um, a lot of those are really taken out of context....

Um, I said not all are real contradictions and for the most part they are not taken out of context.


Use my first example....explain the two deaths....

2 Samuel 23:8 (King James Version)

These be the names of the mighty men whom David had: The Tachmonite that sat in the seat, chief among the captains; the same was Adino the Eznite: he lift up his spear against eight hundred, whom he slew at one time.

This verse is referring to Adino the Eznite who slew eight hundred men.

1 Chronicles 11:11 (King James Version)

And this is the number of the mighty men whom David had; Jashobeam, an Hachmonite, the chief of the captains: he lifted up his spear against three hundred slain by him at one time.

This verse refers to Jashobeam, an Hachmonite, who slew three hundred men.

Two different people; two different numbers.

Oh great... this guy memorized it -)

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: VenomXTF

And is exactly why God, why religion, was created. Because the limitations of the human knowledge/mind. Study some anthropology/history of religion origins.

Your friend goes on talking about "laws". Well either logic is a law God must follow or it is not. Either way you're wrong.

Sorry, but no. Logic is not a law, and your logic is not the same as God's. How does that disprove God's logic as apposed to disproving your logic? Because it's your logic and therefore can't be flawed, right?

 

[AbAbber2k]

Wouldn't the "bare assertion" be the most obvious fallacy found in the bible? Basically, passages in the bible asserting that the rest of the text is true because the bible says it is the word of god (or inspired by) and because the word of god is supposedly infallible (as stated by the bible), thus so is the bible? ie: The bible is true because the bible says so.

There. A fallacy.

 

[RapidSnail]

Originally posted by: Lazy8s
Juat a heads up but those two scriptures do not claim the bible is perfect. It claims that the words of God are perfect, and then it states the bible is inspired by God. If you can find a verse that says the bible is God's exact words you will have proven it perfect.

2 Timothy 3:15-16 (King James Version)

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

This passage of the Bible says that all scripture is inspired [Greek:God-breathed]. In other words, God "breathed" his words to the holy men of God who penned them down.

From this verse, we can conclude that all scripture in the Bible was "breathed" by God to the writers of this Book (who recorded them as they were) and are therefore the words of God.


Psalm 12:6-7 (King James Version)

The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Proverbs 30:5-6 (King James Version)

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

1 Peter 1:23 (King James Version)

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Psalm 19:7 (King James Version)

The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

The above verses go to show you that the words of God are pure/incorruptible/etc. If you don't want to believe it, fine; but don't deny what it says.

 

[VenomXTF]

Well since you don't know wtf version of logic God uses, we can't continue our discussion. Always find some hole to escape into.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: VenomXTF
Well since you don't know wtf version of logic God uses, we can't continue our discussion. Always find some hole to escape into.

I don't have a hole to escape into, nor do I need one. You just can't admit YOUR logic might be flawed.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: VenomXTF
Well since you don't know wtf version of logic God uses, we can't continue our discussion. Always find some hole to escape into.

I don't have a hole to escape into, nor do I need one. You just can't admit YOUR logic might be flawed.

No, his logic isn't flawed. Its even worse, its baseless. He assumes logic without proving where it came from. Isn't assuming the number one thing you aren't supposed to do with logic?

 

[VenomXTF]

I'm not the one who brought up logic first. But think what you want.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: VenomXTF
I'm not the one who brought up logic first. But think what you want.

No, but you're the one trying to use logic to prove your case. After all, you started this with your "logic" question. So who's trying to hide into a hole now?

 

[VenomXTF]

What ever makes you happy so that you can think you'll spend your afterlife in heaven. You dismiss logic, yet you use it at the same time in your example and say "this isn't logical". There is no point to argue with someone like that.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: VenomXTF
What ever makes you happy so that you can think you'll spend your afterlife in heaven. You dismiss logic, yet you use it at the same time in your example and say "this isn't logical". There is no point to argue with someone like that.

Nope not dismissing logic. Our logic comports with the assumption of God. Your logic does not comport with your assumption of logic (self-defeating!).

 

[Patrick Wolf]

I wonder how big of a riot would break out if ATOT met and discussed this in person...

Time to wip out the light saber!

 

[loic2003]

Originally posted by: Patrick Wolf
I wonder how big of a riot would break out if ATOT met and discussed this in person...

Lightning bolt! Lightning bolt!

 

[0ptimist]

Hi RapidSnail,
Let's talk about it in a positive way, I hope your intention is to really think about it with an open mind and if someone really shows you a solid contradiction in Bible, you'll accept that there's a mistake, or at least consider that it could be a mistake, rather than just try to defend the Bible at all cost. I'm not saying that Bible was not the word of God, but the Bible as it exists today, is not 100% the word of God.

Here are some things I'd like you to think about:

Crucifixion of Jesus
Is it wrong that the books of Mathew, John, Mark and Luke differ on the description of the events of crucifixion?
Can you just take the four accounts given the above mentioned books and write one summary that states all the facts mentioned in the four books?

Did Mary Magdalene go alone on Sunday to find the body was gone? Or did she go with 2 persons or 3 person?
At what time did she go, morning or afternoon or...?

Genealogies of Jesus
There are two genealogies of Jesus given in the Bible; one in Luke and another in Mathew, why are they different? If Jesus was son of God, where is God's name in the genealogy? Jesus was born miraculously, without a father, how do such genealogies fit in?

If you say that the errors were not there in the original, it doesn't help because the original is nowhere to be found today, the Bible as it exists today has these errors. If these are merely translation mistakes, why weren't they fixed in the last revision of the Bible?

I've been listening to the lectures by this man named Gary Miller. If you really want to know about the problems in Bible, you should listen to his lectures as well.

Dr Gary Miller (Abdul-Ahad Omar) was a Christian theologian who had been giving lectures and presentations about Christianity and issues in Bible for many years. He studied the Quran and accepted Islam in 1978. (according to him, no Muslim gave it to him, he just wanted to try it out, and he found out that the Quran agreed with those things mentioned in the Bible that he believed MUST be correct, see below to hear his own words)

Downloadable audio mp3 lectures by Gary Miller:
http://www.mydeviant.com/miller/

I wrote down some of his words (listening to the audio) into text (I may not have written down some of the words perfectly).

Here's what Miller says, in reply to a question about how he found out about Islam and when he decided to accept Islam:
(http://www.mydeviant.com/miller/audio/m...Muslims_Misguided_or_Misunderstood.mp3 at 63:22)
Answer

I said when I started out (means when he started out his talk) I don't go around giving testimonials and telling you the wonderful story of how I became a Muslim, so I don't really wanna do that.
But, uh, it's a dull story any way, no Muslim ever stepped up to me and said, "I bet you've never heard this before" and he said some magic words and I said, 'My God, I should be a Muslim!'. It didn't happen that way and I don't think it ever happened to anybody that way.

It's a matter of... for about 15 years I've been doing a lot of investigating and a lot of things. It didn't have anything to do with Islam under the name "Islam", just investigating things.
And one day I thought I'd read the Quran and see how much is any good, and about three days later I realized, "Well this book says what I've been saying for about 15 years, so I guess I must've been a Muslim since a long time ago. Then I went to find some Muslims, that was in 1978. So that's, to cut the long story short, that's about the way it happened.

In another talk (http://www.mydeviant.com/miller/audio/m...Communicating_Islam_to_Non-Muslims.mp3, at 64:32):
Question: Could you tell us about your personal experience? (about accepting Islam)
Answer:

It was so long ago, I don't.... It's really not fresh in my mind because people sometimes imagine I guess maybe somebody was doing something and they thought, Oh, I must do something different... this is a more shocking thing that happens more gradually and... it's a matter of... for myself I had a short list of things that I was convinced must be the case, and just thought I would look around and there was a book store next to where I was working and I bought a translation of the Quran, not even a particularly good one, I guess it was Dawood's translation, I thought well I'll start reading through this and start checking off where it disagrees with me and I went all the way through and I didn't find any disagreement. So I thought well, what else did it say and I went through another time and I started adding to my list, of what now it says, and that's acceptable too and that's acceptable and it all added up in this way. But that's a critical approach, it's not... well it's logical, largely, but it's like a farmer, or a technician or something, you do some measurements you see, I have standards, or you pinch the fruit, you know, whatever you do, you have certain criterion, standard that must be met and you test this and test this and wanna keep passing the test, and now this is worth my attention, because so far I've found no problem and then you really start to investigate these things.

PS:
If anyone wants to talk about it off the board, I'll be glad to do so as well, feel free to PM me or email me.

 

[Xonoahbin]

There's a major logical fallacy on page one of the bible. It talked about light on the third day and then the sun being created on the seventh, or something like that. Well, the sun gives us our light. Sigh.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: NeonAura
There's a major logical fallacy on page one of the bible. It talked about light on the third day and then the sun being created on the seventh, or something like that. Well, the sun gives us our light. Sigh.

You're a moron. Please stay out of the conversation.

 

[RapidSnail]

I'm sorry for the delay so far; I've been very busy. I'm going to try to answer some questions tonight.

BTW, 0ptimist, thanks for posting . I appreciate the way you came into this (not angry or rude), and I'll get to you after I to tackle some of the other posts.

 

[Theb]

The Skeptics Annotated Bible
-the contradictions section

Sorry if someone already posted it.