Can the US thrive as a 99% service economy?

[MongGrel]

Tax? Hell, there is a big push for both sides here in the US to put more (so called) free trade agreements into place. We freely send our jobs to them and import everything else from them. I guess that's 'free'. Fair? Not so much.

Reagan dreamed of the fucking, Bush I warmed it up and Clinton stuck it in (slid it in so easy that we didn't know that we were getting fucked). The US middle class has been fucked....and the lube has run dry.

+2

 

[Grooveriding]

It's not thriving now, so isn't the answer already clear ?

 

[irishScott]

You must believe in trickle down economics too, since it's right up there with that democracy through free markets the corporations were peddling when outsourcing American jobs to China,

and the reason it is becoming less cost effective is because the American employee wages and what little benefits are left if ancy have been pushed down while the Chinese have risen, and the corporate types would have you believe that it is a good thing.

So if I believe in one thing I must believe in something completely unrelated, all so you have something to scoff at? That's a stupid way to think.

As you point out, Chinese wages have risen. See Table 2 here: http://www.bls.gov/fls/china.htm#manufacturing

Believe it or not, raw competition does produce results in some contexts. Given enough time and development Chinese wages will rise to the point where shipping costs, lack of quality and lack of agility will make it unprofitable for all but the largest corporations to outsource.

I'm not saying that's the only factor, I'm not saying we shouldn't do other things to bring manufucaturing back faster. But fact remains that barring a worldwide economic depression or other interference the problem will, over decades, probably fix itself.

Believe it or not, competition works sometimes.

 

[irishScott]

The two current official side arms of the military are made by Beretta and Sig Sauer... neither of which are American.

Obviously the sidearm is a very small part of the military, but it shows that we're not going to solely source from our own country.

More significantly the Army's adopting the FN MAG as a replacement for the M60, and the Marines an H&K for their squad automatic weapon.

 

[norseamd]

More significantly the Army's adopting the FN MAG as a replacement for the M60, and the Marines an H&K for their squad automatic weapon.

As far as I am aware FN Herstal and H&K have good reputations compared to the standard firearm manufacturer in America. If you actually want to start adopting firearms made in America then we need to open the Springfield Armoury again to develop and produce the equipment for our soldiers. Otherwise adopting shit designed around profits from cost reduction is not a good idea.

 

[jlee]

The two current official side arms of the military are made by Beretta and Sig Sauer... neither of which are American.

Obviously the sidearm is a very small part of the military, but it shows that we're not going to solely source from our own country.

Dude, Sig is based out of New Hampshire.
http://www.sigsauer.com/AboutUs/

They have an international presence, sure - but they have a lot of stuff here too.

 

[Hugo Drax]

That's pretty unrealistic. The prices of things aren't entirely in the control of businesses. People aren't going to sell below the cost to produce. That and the aggregation of wealth produces a great deal of power; people aren't just going to give that up by allowing all prices to crash; they'll use their power to maintain their position... kind of like they do now.

As long as credit is provided to the sheep. deflation will strike hard the moment credit is not available to the plebs and they are still earning mcjob wages.

Remember the cost of production is super cheap, shit is made in China, programmed by Indians living in huts somewhere in Calcutta. The only reason prices are where they are at today is because people are in their necks borrowing to the hilt.

The fat profits are locked up in offshore tax havens and other investments. You are not seeing it trickle down.

 

[norseamd]

As long as credit is provided to the sheep. deflation will strike hard the moment credit is not available to the plebs and they are still earning mcjob wages. Remember the cost of production is super cheap, shit is made in China, programmed by Indians living in huts somewhere in Calcutta. The only reason prices are where they are at today is because people are in their necks borrowing to the hilt. The fat profits are locked up in offshore tax havens and other investments. You are not seeing it trickle down.

LOL. You try too hard. Calcutta is a giant metropolis so the poor would live in a shack or run down apartment. And I am assuming that someone with a technical job is going to have a maintained moderate quality apartment at the very least if not more.

 

[irishScott]

As far as I am aware FN Herstal and H&K have good reputations compared to the standard firearm manufacturer in America. If you actually want to start adopting firearms made in America then we need to open the Springfield Armoury again to develop and produce the equipment for our soldiers. Otherwise adopting shit designed around profits from cost reduction is not a good idea.

Not really, at least not in recent years. Colt makes the M4/M16 rifles in service with every branch of the military, Remington makes sniper rifles; and in the civilian sector Ruger and Smith & Wesson are massive and known for making quality firearms, Smith & Wesson in particular has made large inroads with law enforcement. Apparently the Smith & Wesson M&P is a candidate for replacing the M9.
http://www.armytimes.com/article/20110828/NEWS/108280315/Pistols-shot-replacing-M9

Also Springfield Armory still exists, just not as a government owned corporation. They make some damn fine firearms as well, but their best are traditional styles that the military mostly isn't that interested in. They own the popular XD line of modern polymer pistols, but those are made in Croatia (in fact they originated there, Springfield just bought them a few few years ago) and therefore likely not suitable for US military service unless they bring manufacturing of the line over hear.
http://www.springfield-armory.com

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

If the chef is producing something? Where does the $15 for the groceries go?

A better example might be me as a contractor. Lets say I take $1000 worth of crap and make it a $2500 electric service. I built something I created $1500 worth of wealth for myself but sent $1000 to china for the manufactoring - the distributers cut etc.

Then guess what happens to a lot of that $1500 I made?

How long can we send that money away? Until no one can pay for my services because all the money is overseas.

Labor is wealth. Life, Liberty and Property. By property he meant the fruit of your labor that can be a hunk of ore, or that ore reshaped, or something intangible, regardless it's generating wealth. You're way too caught up in this cute idea that anything that isn't manufacturing isn't wealth generation.

Really what is manufacturing but service? They're not really creating anything. They're putting different objects together much like a a burger flipper does with patties and buns. You just value steel and glass more.

Oddly when you think about it neither is allowed the fruit of their labors; they're both generating wealth for someone else in shitty environments, and somehow we deem it ok for one to live a shitty existence where they can't afford all the necessities of life and the other to live a somewhat comfortable one (but it would be wrong if they lived too comfortable).

Clearly, the only real wealth creators are miners and farmers, clearly.

 

[norseamd]

Not really, at least not in recent years. Colt makes the M4/M16 rifles in service with every branch of the military, Remington makes sniper rifles; and in the civilian sector Ruger and Smith & Wesson are massive and known for making quality firearms, Smith & Wesson in particular has made large inroads with law enforcement. Apparently the Smith & Wesson M&P is a candidate for replacing the M9.
http://www.armytimes.com/article/20110828/NEWS/108280315/Pistols-shot-replacing-M9

Also Springfield Armory still exists, just not as a government owned corporation. They make some damn fine firearms as well, but their best are traditional styles that the military mostly isn't that interested in. They own the popular XD line of modern polymer pistols, but those are made in Croatia (in fact they originated there, Springfield just bought them a few few years ago) and therefore likely not suitable for US military service unless they bring manufacturing of the line over hear.
http://www.springfield-armory.com

Well I was specifically referring to Colt. Regardless DI as it is currently is not an ideal form of firearm. As for right now I would just go with some gas operated firearm with a more intermediate cartridge. The Swedish 6.5 seems like a nice round to use. This would obviously be used in the assault rifle and LMG. You could stick with the 7.62 or upgrade to a somewhat more powerful cartridge. Although I am not sure if there is any more need for power in the military equipment using that cartridge right now.

 

[Hugo Drax]

LOL. You try too hard. Calcutta is a giant metropolis so the poor would live in a shack or run down apartment. And I am assuming that someone with a technical job is going to have a maintained moderate quality apartment at the very least if not more.

Your right I had the wrong city its Bombay.

 

[Train]

Hugo, I have no idea what point either of those pictures is trying to make.

One is a shitty photochop and the other could be a picture of anywhere and proves nothing about the people who live there. They contribute less than nothing to this conversation.

 

[Hugo Drax]

Hugo, I have no idea what point either of those pictures is trying to make.

One is a shitty photochop and the other could be a picture of anywhere and proves nothing about the people who live there. They contribute less than nothing to this conversation.

Yes it does. The average programmer in India makes 6,530 USD a year. Thats less than a burger flipper in the US. That is below the US poverty line of 11,490. The second picture is from India.


National
₹400,000

 

[Train]

Yes it does. The average programmer in India makes 6,530 USD a year.

What does that have to do with a fake picture?!?!?!?

That number by itself, is meaningless. How does it compare to the average?

Thats less than a burger flipper in the US. That is below the US poverty line of 11,490. The second picture is from India.

National
₹400,000

A "picutre from india"? It proves what again?

doubleFacePalm.png

 

[norseamd]

The cost of rent and food is not the same in India as it is in America.

 

[videogames101]

The fact is you'd rather be the CEO of Apple than Foxconn. I don't get the obsession with manufacturing, design and Intellectual property is where the real wealth is being created nowadays. But everyone born in the 50's seems to want to return to a wartime industrial economy.... I don't understand.

 

[Sonikku]

Yes it does. The average programmer in India makes 6,530 USD a year. Thats less than a burger flipper in the US. That is below the US poverty line of 11,490. The second picture is from India.


National
₹400,000

I hear a ton of people in India make like one MILLION rupees. In Zelda I thought I was rich if I had just 255 of those damn things. If India is anything like Zelda, it can't be all bad.

 

[Belegost]

Yes it does. The average programmer in India makes 6,530 USD a year. Thats less than a burger flipper in the US. That is below the US poverty line of 11,490. The second picture is from India.


National
₹400,000

It's worth noting that the US poverty line is based on the cost of living in the US. A quick comparison shows that the cost of living in India is ~1/3 that of the US. So the equivalent poverty line is around $3,800/year, putting the average Indian programmer well above that.

 

[Engineer]

We don't need no stinking service jobs. Lowes is experimenting replacing workers with robots.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/not-s...ut-robotic-shopping-assiciates-150411173.html

The true test for businesses will be how customers respond to being helped by a robot, and how it impacts the bottom line, says Task. “If you’re an employer and you look at this OSHbot, which apparently costs $50,000, you're saying a minimum-wage worker plus benefits is maybe going to cost me $25,000 to $30,000-a-year, but this robot is never going to take a sick day, is never going to want to go on vacation…”

and...never going to buy a damn thing from a Lowes store. Oops...where are all the customers? And does a minimum wage worker cost $25,000 to $30,000 per year? Most minimum wage workers don't work full time nor do they get benefits.

 

[Imp]

It's worth noting that the US poverty line is based on the cost of living in the US. A quick comparison shows that the cost of living in India is ~1/3 that of the US. So the equivalent poverty line is around $3,800/year, putting the average Indian programmer well above that.

...I should go retire there right now.

 

[Chaotic42]

We don't need no stinking service jobs. Lowes is experimenting replacing workers with robots.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/not-s...ut-robotic-shopping-assiciates-150411173.html



and...never going to buy a damn thing from a Lowes store. Oops...where are all the customers? And does a minimum wage worker cost $25,000 to $30,000 per year? Most minimum wage workers don't work full time nor do they get benefits.

Unless we artificially limit them, automation and efficiency are going to necessitate a complete change in our economic system. We can prepare for it and do it properly or we can wait and let all hell break loose. I'm guess we'll do the latter.

 

[norseamd]

You know I have been concerned about that for a long time now and I think with our current population the only way to deal with this problem is going to be some type of increased socialism. If we had less population there might have been other options available but not anymore.

 

[MongGrel]

More significantly the Army's adopting the FN MAG as a replacement for the M60, and the Marines an H&K for their squad automatic weapon.

Really has little to do with nuclear subs/ships, aircraft, electronic equipment, etc, but yeah there is a point there.

 

[MongGrel]

We don't need no stinking service jobs. Lowes is experimenting replacing workers with robots.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/not-s...ut-robotic-shopping-assiciates-150411173.html



and...never going to buy a damn thing from a Lowes store. Oops...where are all the customers? And does a minimum wage worker cost $25,000 to $30,000 per year? Most minimum wage workers don't work full time nor do they get benefits.

Well the US has all ready been sold out and screwed for decades now, so no real surprise these days.