Can the police arrest you because they had "a feeling"

Page 13 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

TheKub

Golden Member
Oct 2, 2001
1,756
1
0
Originally posted by: spidey07

PRIVATE network. Big difference. PRIVATE NETWORK.

Not that I really want to get back into this but what is a public network then?

My impression is that if you can get out of the network or if traffic from a nother network can get in then its a public network.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: spidey07
What part of authorization do you people not understand?

What part of "If it's not for public use, put a password on it" do you not understand.

I can't open a restaurant on a busy street, hang an open sign on it, and simply wait for people to come through the front door so I can call the cops and report them for B&E.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: nweaver
He says that because several people have made the statement that getting a DHCP address means they have been granted permission.

If you want to talk about Acessing wifi/associating with an AP, you HAVE to talk about layer 2, because it's the ONLY RELEVENT LAYER.

Seems to me that if an IP is being assigned, the user has already been authorized by layer 2 and has moved on.

If the doorman at a club checks my ID and let's me in, do I have to stop and ask every employee inside whether I can be there?
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: BoberFett

So if you connect to a web site for which you don't have permission and receive a 403 is that breaking the law? You attempted to connect to something without permission. If you're going to rigidly abide by the rules, let's do it properly.

Likewise, if you go to a website and get no errors, did you break the law? What if the police later told you that it was a private website and there was supposed to be a password prompt, but the webmaster forgot to implement it?
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: nweaver


If you want to talk about Acessing wifi/associating with an AP, you HAVE to talk about layer 2, because it's the ONLY RELEVENT LAYER.

Why is it the "only" relevant layer in this case? Associating with the AP is one thing, but getting onto the internet and checking your email is another. Somewhere along the line the option was available to them to block you, yet they did nothing to lock it down.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Yet you have failed to point out where the law distinguishes between OSI layers.

Access point is a computer by every defintion (processor, memory, long term storage). You connect to a computer and/or computer network without permission.

So if you connect to a web site for which you don't have permission and receive a 403 is that breaking the law? You attempted to connect to something without permission. If you're going to rigidly abide by the rules, let's do it properly.

We've already been through this. PRIVATE NETWORK.

Please don't confuse a PRIVATE NETWORK with a PUBLIC NETWORK.
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: spidey07

Please don't confuse a PRIVATE NETWORK with a PUBLIC NETWORK.

I don't think he's confusing it. I think people are saying that if their access point is advertising wifi with no security enabled (when they have the option to easily do so) , they're pretty much making it public.
 

TheKub

Golden Member
Oct 2, 2001
1,756
1
0
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Yet you have failed to point out where the law distinguishes between OSI layers.

Access point is a computer by every defintion (processor, memory, long term storage). You connect to a computer and/or computer network without permission.

So if you connect to a web site for which you don't have permission and receive a 403 is that breaking the law? You attempted to connect to something without permission. If you're going to rigidly abide by the rules, let's do it properly.

We've already been through this. PRIVATE NETWORK.

Please don't confuse a PRIVATE NETWORK with a PUBLIC NETWORK.


I repeat...

Not that I really want to get back into this but what is a public network then?

My impression is that if you can get out of the network or if traffic from a nother network can get in then its a public network
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Yet you have failed to point out where the law distinguishes between OSI layers.

Access point is a computer by every defintion (processor, memory, long term storage). You connect to a computer and/or computer network without permission.

So if you connect to a web site for which you don't have permission and receive a 403 is that breaking the law? You attempted to connect to something without permission. If you're going to rigidly abide by the rules, let's do it properly.

We've already been through this. PRIVATE NETWORK.

Please don't confuse a PRIVATE NETWORK with a PUBLIC NETWORK.

What makes an open wireless access point any different than a web server? They're both computers (remember, processor, memory, long term storage) and both on networks. If I put my web server on the internet and call it private, does that make it private?

(Here comes his stupid response including layer 2 vs layer 6 (http))
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: spidey07

Please don't confuse a PRIVATE NETWORK with a PUBLIC NETWORK.

I don't think he's confusing it. I think people are saying that if their access point is advertising wifi with no security enabled (when they have the option to easily do so) , they're pretty much making it public.

And that's where the problem lies. Just becuase it's there doesn't mean you can have it.

I've already explained a PUBLIC vs. PRIVATE network.

You want to know what the difference is? The authorization of the owner/operator of said network.
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: spidey07

You want to know what the difference is? The authorization of the owner/operator of said network.

And therein lies my aforementioned legal defense.

If the owner said that customers can use the Wifi, then this guy could be in the clear as long as he was a customer in the past. If the owner stated no time limit, this guy didn't break any rules.
 

TheKub

Golden Member
Oct 2, 2001
1,756
1
0
Originally posted by: spidey07
You want to know what the difference is? The authorization of the owner/operator of said network.

That would make the above arguments vaild. If I made a website that was intended only for a select group of individuals and you stumbled onto it you would be violating the law as well, as the law covers unauthorized access to computers as well to networks. Wouldn't it?

 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: BoberFett
What makes an open wireless access point any different than a web server? They're both computers (remember, processor, memory, long term storage) and both on networks. If I put my web server on the internet and call it private, does that make it private?

(Here comes his stupid response including layer 2 vs layer 6 (http))

Because the websever is operated/addressed on a PUBLIC network. By placing the host on a PUBLIC network there are agreements in place to allow such access. That gives permission to access resouces.

Have you ever dealt with the legal mumbo-jumbo for getting your own address range on the PUBLIC Internet?

Stop making that analogy. I swear, I'm done with trying to teach people how the Internet works. Much less WiFi.

You WILL see more and more cases like this. It's a big concern and will be addressed with the next WiFI standard.



 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: TheKub
Originally posted by: spidey07
You want to know what the difference is? The authorization of the owner/operator of said network.

That would make the above arguments vaild. If I made a website that was intended only for a select group of individuals and you stumbled onto it you would be violating the law as well, as the law covers unauthorized access to computers as well to networks. Wouldn't it?

Not really. Once you are on a public network it's fair game.

The network operator can make the network public or private. We're dealing with private networks here and the authorization of that PRIVATE operator.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Jesus f'ing christ spidey, quit dodging and answer everyone's burning question. What makes one computer public and one computer private?
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: BoberFett
What makes an open wireless access point any different than a web server? They're both computers (remember, processor, memory, long term storage) and both on networks. If I put my web server on the internet and call it private, does that make it private?

(Here comes his stupid response including layer 2 vs layer 6 (http))

Because the websever is operated/addressed on a PUBLIC network. By placing the host on a PUBLIC network there are agreements in place to allow such access. That gives permission to access resouces.

Have you ever dealt with the legal mumbo-jumbo for getting your own address range on the PUBLIC Internet?

Stop making that analogy. I swear, I'm done with trying to teach people how the Internet works. Much less WiFi.

You WILL see more and more cases like this. It's a big concern and will be addressed with the next WiFI standard.

And the wifi point is operated/addressable over public airwaves.

Nothing makes the wifi network private other then you scream it at the top of your lungs on an internet forum.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: spidey07
Not really. Once you are on a public network it's fair game.
Great, then this guy was not guilty of a crime. He was checking his e-mail. That means this access point was connected the internet. Which is a public network. That means it was fair game.

Damn, you're easy to argue around.
 

TheKub

Golden Member
Oct 2, 2001
1,756
1
0
Originally posted by: spidey07
Not really. Once you are on a public network it's fair game.

Then brute forceing a password on a website located on a public network would be ok becasue its fair game?

So then the only way I can secure my website is by using authentication or a page that says "you cant go here unless you are XXXX"?

The access point is private property but so is my server that is hosting the webpage and as such I have rigths to control access dont I?
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: TheKub
Originally posted by: spidey07
Not really. Once you are on a public network it's fair game.

Then brute forceing a password on a website located on a public network would be ok becasue its fair game?

So then the only way I can secure my website is by using authentication or a page that says "you cant go here unless you are XXXX"?

The access point is private property but so is my server that is hosting the webpage and as such I have rigths to control access dont I?

Layer 2. He hates explaining network protocols. Layer 2. And spidey is never wrong. There's no point in arguing with him. He says so.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: MetalMat
This is lame, arresting somebody using wifi is retarted.

This should be stickied, this is the new America, suck it up.

Yep. I hear they go after people filesharing copyrighted works too. WTF is this country coming to when you can't trespass and steal anymore?

Oh... wait. You've never been able to trespass and steal in America...
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: MetalMat
This is lame, arresting somebody using wifi is retarted.

This should be stickied, this is the new America, suck it up.

Yep. I hear they go after people filesharing copyrighted works too. WTF is this country coming to when you can't trespass and steal anymore?

Oh... wait. You've never been able to trespass and steal in America...

Copyright is a separate issue, but until recently you couldn't hold a government sponsored monopoly on an idea for 100+ years either. If you want to debate copyright Vic we can do that in another thread. :)
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
And BTW, this "the evil corporations are working to bar free wifi" crap is mostly a myth. There's some truth to it, of course, but most of it has to do with people who keep piggybacking on other peoples' private networks without their knowledge. In 99% of the cases, you're taking advantage of their computer illiteracy. So naturally they feel violated after the fact and complain to some authority. I bought a new AP recently and it wouldn't even let me activate the wireless until I had gone through a wizard to establish an encryption protocol and password. Why is that, I wonder?

As for the conspiracy theories, what can I say? My city is working to establish a free wifi network all across town. Ad-supported of course, but somebody has to pay for the bandwidth. I believe it's already up and running downtown.

edit: oops, looks like it's a lot bigger than that already -- http://www.wifipdx.com/
edit2: nope, that's just a list of hot spots, here is the city-sponsored one I was thinking of -- http://www.metrofi.com/
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: MetalMat
This is lame, arresting somebody using wifi is retarted.

This should be stickied, this is the new America, suck it up.

Yep. I hear they go after people filesharing copyrighted works too. WTF is this country coming to when you can't trespass and steal anymore?

Oh... wait. You've never been able to trespass and steal in America...

Copyright is a separate issue, but until recently you couldn't hold a government sponsored monopoly on an idea for 100+ years either. If you want to debate copyright Vic we can do that in another thread. :)

Sorry, this thread is giving me flashbacks to the ATOT of 5 years ago.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Jesus f'ing christ spidey, quit dodging and answer everyone's burning question. What makes one computer public and one computer private?

The defintion of a public or private network.

Why is this so difficult? Maybe I've been so deep into network communications that I can't comprehend how laymen don't understand this.