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Can someone, anyone, cite a single respected, peer-reviewed, academic article claiming that a fiat money scheme is bad?

beer

Lifer
Economics is one of those subjects that has nice answers to difficult questions that are simple, elegant, and wrong.

So here's my challenge to the "fiat money = DOOM" crowd. Find me a single, well-respected, tenured professor of a major university who, in a published and peer-reviewed article, states that a fiat money scheme will invariably lead to economic disaster.

 
Fiat money has worked in the US since Nixon took us off the gold standard, and has worked for over a hundred years in other countries.
As long as the fiat authority maintains the money supply in relation to the value the money can purchase everything is fine.
When you have countries printing money above and beyond what the money is worth you have problems. See Germany between the two world wars and the US under George Bush and the Republicans for the disastrous results of this mismanagement.
 
Originally posted by: techs
Fiat money has worked in the US since Nixon took us off the gold standard, and has worked for over a hundred years in other countries.
As long as the fiat authority maintains the money supply in relation to the value the money can purchase everything is fine.
When you have countries printing money above and beyond what the money is worth you have problems. See Germany between the two world wars and the US under George Bush and the Republicans for the disastrous results of this mismanagement.

I understand this. I've read many books on economics, and I have a good, basic understanding of practical macroeconomic policy and various theories. I'm annoyed because these "fiat money = doom" messages have popped up on message boards much the same way chain emails saying "obama is a Muslim" have popped up and neither will die despite extraordinary evidence that their message is fundamentally wrong.

A look into half the threads here will make this obvious. The people that I am directing this thread to are:

Names edited

I just think that if they are speading this "doom and gloom is caused by fiat money" message they should be able to substantiate it with at least one well-respected source.

This is the same message, by the way, that creationists use. They claim something so strongly and yet they can't cite any event in history that can prove their point.

Please do not call out members by name in the future as it is against the rules.

Anandtech Senior Moderator
Red Dawn

 
Economics isn't really "science" though, so it can't be treated as such. The problem with any Economic System and even more so a Monetary System is that it is an abstract concept. Not as abstract as say Love or Happiness, but still beyond the realm of "science".
 
Originally posted by: sandorski
Economics isn't really "science" though, so it can't be treated as such. The problem with any Economic System and even more so a Monetary System is that it is an abstract concept. Not as abstract as say Love or Happiness, but still beyond the realm of "science".

I'm not saying it is a science. The fact that it is not a hard science, like physics, however, does not mean that the peer-reviewed journals for that field are full of ideas are completely baseless, like a philosophy.

I would say its more like psychology than physics; economics and psychology are populated with hundreds of researchers at leading institutions and you would think that if a concept was even remotely debatable there'd be some research on the counterpoint. I am looking for that counterpoint in his thread.
 
Originally posted by: beer
Originally posted by: sandorski
Economics isn't really "science" though, so it can't be treated as such. The problem with any Economic System and even more so a Monetary System is that it is an abstract concept. Not as abstract as say Love or Happiness, but still beyond the realm of "science".

I'm not saying it is a science. The fact that it is not a hard science, like physics, however, does not mean that the peer-reviewed journals for that field are full of ideas are completely baseless, like a philosophy.

I would say its more like psychology than physics; economics and psychology are populated with hundreds of researchers at leading institutions and you would think that if a concept was even remotely debatable there'd be some research on the counterpoint. I am looking for that counterpoint in his thread.

Gold Standard advocates want something they can relate to. The link shows a similar sentiment for another issue at another time. 😉
 
I tried searching my university database but gave up because frankly most of the articles I found were too heavy for me to discern any clear position on the gold standard without putting in more than a minimal amount of effort.

However, I found a book you may find interesting. http://www.amazon.com/Case-Aga...Rothbard/dp/094546617X Again I haven't looked too deep into this but the guy seems legit and this title was listed in our academic database, product description claims "The most powerful case against the American central bank ever written."

edit: Wikipedia says he had a PhD from Columbia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Rothbard. Seems like a smart guy to give the libertarian case.
 
Empirical evidence that more independent monetary policy results in lead to lower inflation:

Alesina, Summers, "Central Bank independence and macroeconomic performance", Journal of Money, Credit and Banking 25, 1993 pages 151-162

The theory behind gold standard is that it would prevent the gov't from deficit financing, but as history will tell us (aka the demise of bretton woods), having dollar pegged to gold didn't prevent it.
 
Originally posted by: halik
Empirical evidence that more independent monetary policy results in lead to lower inflation:

Alesina, Summers, "Central Bank independence and macroeconomic performance", Journal of Money, Credit and Banking 25, 1993 pages 151-162

The theory behind gold standard is that it would prevent the gov't from deficit financing, but as history will tell us (aka the demise of bretton woods), having dollar pegged to gold didn't prevent it.

Of course it leads to lower inflation. No one says otherwise, and that was not the point that I was making with the OP. But, again, this message is not what the 'fiat = doom' paulbots are saying, either. They are saying that, in addition to the simple and obvious fact that the gold standard stops inflation, it also provides a more stable currency system than fiat. And, well, that's what I'm looking for someone to substantiate.

What I was trying to emphasize was that having a currency pegged to gold dramatically reduces the flexibility that the free market has to steer itself out of a recession because you can't expand the amount of available currency when no one is spending and when, historically, inflation isn't the largest risk to the economy.
 
Originally posted by: beer
Economics is one of those subjects that has nice answers to difficult questions that are simple, elegant, and wrong.

So here's my challenge to the "fiat money = DOOM" crowd. Find me a single, well-respected, tenured professor of a major university who, in a published and peer-reviewed article, states that a fiat money scheme will invariably lead to economic disaster.

There's nothing that says our fiat system will invariably lead to economic disaster because in some cases it can work. However, if its managed incorrectly and government ineptitude increases then it can fail (for proof see Great Depression) and cause plenty of economic problems to go with it. Its pretty much non-disputed that the Fed caused the Great Depression (even Bernanke and Greenspan share this view). So this proves that central banking can potentially cause a massive recession.

Free market advocates state that there could be a system where money can be much harder to inflate by the government, where if a bank is poorly run then it fails, and if a bank fails then it wouldn't be as dramatic for the economy as if a central bank with a single currency were to fail (see Great Depression).

Frederick von Hayek is a well respected economist (won a Nobel Prize in economics) who made the argument for competing currencies. Check out some of his work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hayek

But there are dozens upon dozens of professors that view economics through an Austrian-economics perspective and contribute to the idea of free banking over central banking.
 
Originally posted by: SleepWalkerX
There's nothing that says our fiat system will invariably lead to economic disaster because in some cases it can work. However, if its managed incorrectly and government ineptitude increases then it can fail (for proof see Great Depression) and cause plenty of economic problems to go with it. Its pretty much non-disputed that the Fed caused the Great Depression (even Bernanke and Greenspan share this view). So this proves that central banking can potentially cause a massive recession.

Free market advocates state that there could be a system where money can be much harder to inflate by the government, where if a bank is poorly run then it fails, and if a bank fails then it wouldn't be as dramatic for the economy as if a central bank with a single currency were to fail (see Great Depression).

Frederick von Hayek is a well respected economist (won a Nobel Prize in economics) who made the argument for competing currencies. Check out some of his work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hayek

But there are dozens upon dozens of professors that view economics through an Austrian-economics perspective and contribute to the idea of free banking over central banking.

What was it that caused the Great Depression?

Essentially, when liquidity in the market dried up, because credit losses relating to stock margin accounts, the Fed was too worried about raising inflation. Thus, they contracted liquidity by raising rates and reserve requirements. Sure, they squashed inflation, but causes an even greater amount of monetary crisis, causing waves of defaults.

This all happened under a gold base system that had undergone several problems before, such as the 1907 crisis and several bank runs before.

One must remember that it wasn't the Central Bank system that caused the problem of 1932, it was the relative adolescence of economic theory and central banking. Economics is certainly not the perfect system and is more art than science, since you cannot always predict what decision will cause what problem.

It wasn't CB that caused the GD, per se, it was the imperfect prediction of future events based upon historical knowledge and gut feeling. This is nothing more than the reality of the situation and is something that would have happened whether we had the gold system or not, whether we had a CB, or not.

You see, without a CB, the same event would have happened, credit would have further contracted, and things would have collapsed all the same. What's funny is that goldists decry the Fed trying to curb the exact same problem, using that as an excuse to denounce the Fed. It's a ridiculous claim and one that only highlights their inability to understand the problem.


This is where people cannot quite figure out what to do. They fail to recognize what would have happened in the presence of absence of variables and they fail to recognize that no system is perfect.

Gold idolators would have you think that everything would be hunky dory under a gold system. However, the fail to separate that the problem isn't the fiat system, but the people who control it. If we, as Americans, decried deficits, then the problem wouldn't exist.

Even further hilarity ensues when they bring out Austrian economics, when Austrians don't even follow their own touted theories.

As far as multiple currencies, that didn't help prevent depressions before. Go back and read the economic happenings of the 1800s and the runs on banks, currencies, the virtual bankruptcy of this country, and the problems "competing currencies" caused.

Denouncement of the present system and advocation of the gold standard without knowledge of the downsides of both is false and blind.

One funny thing is this whole outrage against the "inflation tax" by goldists, but they have no idea who it affects and how. You have one huge gold idolator here, Bamacre, claiming it affects millions and robs old people, yet fails to understand bond investing, inflation, and using proceeds in retirement. It's laughable that these people elevate themselves to enlightened status to educate the masses, yet know nothing about what they speak of.

RPBs/goldists/gold idolators, in total, are ignorant of history, economics, and finance, and only advocate an unbalanced and unwise position. They will never come up with an empirical study advocating gold that has solid data supporting it, because there are none. It's a joke played on the unwise and ignorant. Yet the whole world uses fiat and has been pretty successful doing so.

But of course, they know more than the whole world and know history (HAH).
 
Beer you must be joking? You want us to re-post all the peer reviewed papers and research we've posted in the past in various different threads?

http://www.questia.com/search

Go there, search for inflation, gold standard, monetary science, Keynesian Economics, Austrian economics. Journals are the most "peer reviewed" since this matters to you the most. If you want the actual journal you'll have to pay, but if you google the journal in question odds are you'll get more info on it. Or you could go to your local library.
 
LK falsely blames the gold standard for "runs on banks". I'm sorry that's just false. If the bank was held responsible for maintaining it's reserves "runs" would not be an issue.
 
Only a couple paulbots here seem to be pro-non-fiat currency. It's one of the few things I disagree with Paul on, but I don't imagine this sort of thing would get passed anyways, so I'm not too worried in voting for him. Neither should you be; again the idea is to make a point. If McCain loses 5-10% of the republican vote to Paul (he's already got this in pocket judging by primaries), that's 5-10% he could have used to beat Obama.
 
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
Beer you must be joking? You want us to re-post all the peer reviewed papers and research we've posted in the past in various different threads?

http://www.questia.com/search

Go there, search for inflation, gold standard, monetary science, Keynesian Economics, Austrian economics. Journals are the most "peer reviewed" since this matters to you the most. If you want the actual journal you'll have to pay, but if you google the journal in question odds are you'll get more info on it. Or you could go to your local library.

You don't know what the hell you are talking about. Do you know anything about Keynesian economics at all? You don't, because if you did, you would realize that the pillar of Keynesian theory is that the government should play an active role in increasing the money supply during a recession because of the belief that injecting cash into a stalling economy can lead to people spending again without causing inflation. This is, quite honestly, about 180 degrees from whatever perspective you are coming from.

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.
 
Originally posted by: beer
I'm not saying it is a science. The fact that it is not a hard science, like physics, however, does not mean that the peer-reviewed journals for that field are full of ideas are completely baseless, like a philosophy.

I would say its more like psychology than physics; economics and psychology are populated with hundreds of researchers at leading institutions and you would think that if a concept was even remotely debatable there'd be some research on the counterpoint. I am looking for that counterpoint in his thread.
Can you find any that say it won't? I doubt anyone will have much luck finding one either in favor or against without going back decades in the literature to articles that aren't generally available online. More recent articles likely phrase things much more specifically and deal with more esoteric features of these systems than debating whether one can actually use either one with success. I've never read an economics article in my life, but I know that this is my experience in my field.
 
Originally posted by: beer
Economics is one of those subjects that has nice answers to difficult questions that are simple, elegant, and wrong.

So here's my challenge to the "fiat money = DOOM" crowd. Find me a single, well-respected, tenured professor of a major university who, in a published and peer-reviewed article, states that a fiat money scheme will invariably lead to economic disaster.

From what I have seen, the Paulites think that anyone who disagrees with them is corrupt, ignorant, or both. So I amagine you will get responses on the order of "Academics are on the payrole of big business and big government so of course they would only publish what these groups want.".
 
Originally posted by: beer
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
Beer you must be joking? You want us to re-post all the peer reviewed papers and research we've posted in the past in various different threads?

http://www.questia.com/search

Go there, search for inflation, gold standard, monetary science, Keynesian Economics, Austrian economics. Journals are the most "peer reviewed" since this matters to you the most. If you want the actual journal you'll have to pay, but if you google the journal in question odds are you'll get more info on it. Or you could go to your local library.

You don't know what the hell you are talking about. Do you know anything about Keynesian economics at all? You don't, because if you did, you would realize that the pillar of Keynesian theory is that the government should play an active role in increasing the money supply during a recession because of the belief that injecting cash into a stalling economy can lead to people spending again without causing inflation. This is, quite honestly, about 180 degrees from whatever perspective you are coming from.

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

Uh wtf? I listed topics for you to get a basis from. I listed Keynesian so that you could study the alternate of Gold Standards while at the same time finding articles that mentioned both methods. God (if there is one) forbid you study both methods before coming to your own conclusion. I sure as hell wouldn't want you to have to think for yourself, sorry about that.
 
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
Originally posted by: beer
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
Beer you must be joking? You want us to re-post all the peer reviewed papers and research we've posted in the past in various different threads?

http://www.questia.com/search

Go there, search for inflation, gold standard, monetary science, Keynesian Economics, Austrian economics. Journals are the most "peer reviewed" since this matters to you the most. If you want the actual journal you'll have to pay, but if you google the journal in question odds are you'll get more info on it. Or you could go to your local library.

You don't know what the hell you are talking about. Do you know anything about Keynesian economics at all? You don't, because if you did, you would realize that the pillar of Keynesian theory is that the government should play an active role in increasing the money supply during a recession because of the belief that injecting cash into a stalling economy can lead to people spending again without causing inflation. This is, quite honestly, about 180 degrees from whatever perspective you are coming from.

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

Uh wtf? I listed topics for you to get a basis from. I listed Keynesian so that you could study the alternate of Gold Standards while at the same time finding articles that mentioned both methods. God (if there is one) forbid you study both methods before coming to your own conclusion. I sure as hell wouldn't want you to have to think for yourself, sorry about that.

So you list generic topics from the complete spectrum of economic thought, even after I said that I've read enough macroeconomics book in my life to understand what's going on, and claim that somehow you've made a point.

Why even bother posting?
 
Originally posted by: Siddhartha
Originally posted by: beer
Economics is one of those subjects that has nice answers to difficult questions that are simple, elegant, and wrong.

So here's my challenge to the "fiat money = DOOM" crowd. Find me a single, well-respected, tenured professor of a major university who, in a published and peer-reviewed article, states that a fiat money scheme will invariably lead to economic disaster.

From what I have seen, the Paulites think that anyone who disagrees with them is corrupt, ignore, or both.

Ignore?

The "Paulites" think that anyone who disagrees with them in fact does not think like they think. To be a "Paulite" one must value logic, if logic fails you then you will never be able to understand what it means to be a "Paulite".

It's not a complex equation, but if you do not get it, you do not get it. Move to Cuba.
 
Originally posted by: Farang
I tried searching my university database but gave up because frankly most of the articles I found were too heavy for me to discern any clear position on the gold standard without putting in more than a minimal amount of effort.

However, I found a book you may find interesting. http://www.amazon.com/Case-Aga...Rothbard/dp/094546617X Again I haven't looked too deep into this but the guy seems legit and this title was listed in our academic database, product description claims "The most powerful case against the American central bank ever written."

edit: Wikipedia says he had a PhD from Columbia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Rothbard. Seems like a smart guy to give the libertarian case.

Sorry, I did some research on this guy, and he is a complete nutjob.
Among his most memorable events:

* In recent years he disavowed Milton Friedman on the grounds that in endorsing the idea of school vouchers, Professor Friedman had sold out to the enemy, the State.

* in 1959 when Khrushchev arrived in New York, with much of America stunned by the visit of the butcher of Budapest--the Soviet protege of Stalin who was threatening a world war over Berlin-Rothbard physically applauded Khrushchev in his limousine as it passed by on the street. He gave as his reason for this that, after all, Krushchev had killed fewer people than General Eisenhower, his host.

etc, etc: http://findarticles.com/p/arti.../is_n2_v47/ai_16448375

He also wasn't in a respected academic institution:

He taught at Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute from the mid 1960s to the mid 1980s; from 1986 to his death on January 7, 1995, he was S.J. Hall Distinguished Professor of Economics at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas.

http://www.mises.org/about/3249

I am very serious with this thread here, by the way. I will investigate anything and everything that is a legitimate effort to complete the task that I've asked in the OP....
 
In fairness your only rebuttal of Rothbard is ad hominem, and the University of Nevada, Las Vegas is a legitimate academic institution. Not all ideas must come out of Harvard to be worth listening to.

I understand why your argument needs to be ad hominem in this case, though--you have to decide whether it is worth searching out his book at the library. If this were an article online I'd press the issue further but will leave it there.

Anyway I'm not a supporter I just tend to think someone, somewhere has put together an intelligent argument for just about anything.
 
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100

Because you fucking asked...............................

No, I asked for a person in the entire world of academia who achieved a tenure-track position while publishing articles that a fiat money system inherently will lead to economic catastrophe and a gold standard wouldn't.

This thread isn't about deficit spending. It isn't about tax rates or supply-side economics or anything that can be derived in some way or another from a fiat money system. It's about specifically the gold standard and making an attempt to stop the FUD that comes from people like you that has no basis in economic reality - as I stated in my OP, your view of economics is simple, elegant, and wrong.

You've posted three times in this thread.

The first post was to link me to a generic search engine and to give me some economics terms to look up, which is not what I asked;

The second was to tell me to read both viewpoints, but yet you haven't been able to fulfill my request and provide me with a single article about the gold standard;

Using the f word.

So, like I asked last time, why bother posting? Although I appreciate the free bumps, btw.

And your insinuation that I am illogical and less intelligent that you is awesome, too; I guess so are all the professors who study economics for their entire lives because they think your viewpoint is full of shit.
 
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