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Can somebody with a better understanding of large-scale networks explain this to me?

Originally posted by: Ns1
Who should take the blame here?

http://consumerist.com/5036696...arcraft-disconnections

Cliffs

- WoW players get disconnects, lags like crazy
- Blizzard blames TW
- TW says not their fault
- TW analyzes traceroutes of players saying "not on our network"
Click to expand...

I have an answer. TW sux monkey balls. I have their 15 megabit "premium" service and this whole past week all I get is around from 1-2 megabits, occasionally peaking at 6 megabits at 4 AM.

I have called their customer support line 4 times now and every time it's the same god damn thing:
* renew IP address (umm... renewing the IP address on my router helps the cable connection how?)
* reboot cable modem (ok... I have done this 20 times over the past 2 weeks and the speed still SUCKS)
* It must be your computer that's slow

Seriously their tech support (roadrunner in my area) just sucks big time. I will be calling them yet again tonight, and if I get told to renew my godamn IP address one more time I will flip out.
 
Originally posted by: Juddog
Originally posted by: Ns1
Who should take the blame here?

http://consumerist.com/5036696...arcraft-disconnections

Cliffs

- WoW players get disconnects, lags like crazy
- Blizzard blames TW
- TW says not their fault
- TW analyzes traceroutes of players saying "not on our network"
Click to expand...

I have an answer. TW sux monkey balls. I have their 15 megabit "premium" service and this whole past week all I get is around from 1-2 megabits, occasionally peaking at 6 megabits at 4 AM.

I have called their customer support line 4 times now and every time it's the same god damn thing:
* renew IP address (umm... renewing the IP address on my router helps the cable connection how?)
* reboot cable modem (ok... I have done this 20 times over the past 2 weeks and the speed still SUCKS)
* It must be your computer that's slow

Seriously their tech support (roadrunner in my area) just sucks big time. I will be calling them yet again tonight, and if I get told to renew my godamn IP address one more time I will flip out.
Click to expand...

You are not guaranteed 15mbps, that's what your connection is capable of. Unless you can show them you are getting packet loss, or that your modem is dropping connections they don't have to do a damn thing about it.

 
Originally posted by: Crusty
Originally posted by: Juddog
Originally posted by: Ns1
Who should take the blame here?

http://consumerist.com/5036696...arcraft-disconnections

Cliffs

- WoW players get disconnects, lags like crazy
- Blizzard blames TW
- TW says not their fault
- TW analyzes traceroutes of players saying "not on our network"
Click to expand...

I have an answer. TW sux monkey balls. I have their 15 megabit "premium" service and this whole past week all I get is around from 1-2 megabits, occasionally peaking at 6 megabits at 4 AM.

I have called their customer support line 4 times now and every time it's the same god damn thing:
* renew IP address (umm... renewing the IP address on my router helps the cable connection how?)
* reboot cable modem (ok... I have done this 20 times over the past 2 weeks and the speed still SUCKS)
* It must be your computer that's slow

Seriously their tech support (roadrunner in my area) just sucks big time. I will be calling them yet again tonight, and if I get told to renew my godamn IP address one more time I will flip out.
Click to expand...

You are not guaranteed 15mbps, that's what your connection is capable of. Unless you can show them you are getting packet loss, or that your modem is dropping connections they don't have to do a damn thing about it.
Click to expand...

sure thats technically, and legally true.

it still doesnt mean that when they sell someone a monthly service and *offer* the 15 that people should be ok when they regularly only get what you get with a lower-tier.

id be pissed if the 8 im supposed to get was mostly half that or less on a regular basis.

id say vote with your wallet, but not everyone has options. luckily i got to switch from crappy DSL with embarq (formerly sprint) to cable from suddenlink (formerly cox) and the connection now is *great*
 
We recently upgraded one of our remote sites from 6Mbps to 100Mbps for their Internet circuit.

Some users called & complained they're only getting 30Mbps.
Even though we wanted to bitch-slap them, we explained it's a shared connection, and the 100Mbps rate is only guaranteed between our edge router and the provider network.
Anything beyond the ISP can't be guaranteed to be 100Mbps, not to mention speed test sites, which are many hops away.

So, my answer is the same as Crusty's - if you're seeing packet loss or degraded speed in the first few hops within TW/RR's network, it's ISP's fault.
If not, there's nothing the ISP can do about it.

Very rarely that the inter-connect between the ISP's are messed up, which affects all their subscribers, then they need to do something about it.
They'll never admit it though, and there's no way for you to tell.
 
Originally posted by: xSauronx
Originally posted by: Crusty
Originally posted by: Juddog
Originally posted by: Ns1
Who should take the blame here?

http://consumerist.com/5036696...arcraft-disconnections

Cliffs

- WoW players get disconnects, lags like crazy
- Blizzard blames TW
- TW says not their fault
- TW analyzes traceroutes of players saying "not on our network"
Click to expand...

I have an answer. TW sux monkey balls. I have their 15 megabit "premium" service and this whole past week all I get is around from 1-2 megabits, occasionally peaking at 6 megabits at 4 AM.

I have called their customer support line 4 times now and every time it's the same god damn thing:
* renew IP address (umm... renewing the IP address on my router helps the cable connection how?)
* reboot cable modem (ok... I have done this 20 times over the past 2 weeks and the speed still SUCKS)
* It must be your computer that's slow

Seriously their tech support (roadrunner in my area) just sucks big time. I will be calling them yet again tonight, and if I get told to renew my godamn IP address one more time I will flip out.
Click to expand...

You are not guaranteed 15mbps, that's what your connection is capable of. Unless you can show them you are getting packet loss, or that your modem is dropping connections they don't have to do a damn thing about it.
Click to expand...

sure thats technically, and legally true.

it still doesnt mean that when they sell someone a monthly service and *offer* the 15 that people should be ok when they regularly only get what you get with a lower-tier.

id be pissed if the 8 im supposed to get was mostly half that or less on a regular basis.

id say vote with your wallet, but not everyone has options. luckily i got to switch from crappy DSL with embarq (formerly sprint) to cable from suddenlink (formerly cox) and the connection now is *great*
Click to expand...

Oh I agree with that, but what the OP, you, or I think is of little concern to the ISP.

If you want dedicated bandwidth, pay for it.

 
I have Road Runner biz here in Florida, i don't play wow but i always get 15 or more Mb/s
From looking at the tracert's it looks like all the problems are off TW/RR's network. Why is everyone that plays WOW a retard?
Example- "As soon as it hits the ATT (TimeWarner) servers the pings more than double..."
ATT is NOT TimeWarner.
It looks like the pings go insane at the level 3 to att handoff, Which would mean that something is wrong with that link or its just getting hammered.
Why is it only the wow plays that could get something done. If this was like team fortress 2 players, no one would care.


Here it looks like after that last hop they kill ICMP,
First ip i saw to trace to.

C:\Windows\system32>tracert 206.17.111.124

Tracing route to 206.17.111.124 over a maximum of 30 hops

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms gateway.141networks.com [172.16.0.1]
2 12 ms 13 ms 8 ms bhn.141networks.com [10.105.64.1]
3 15 ms 8 ms 13 ms gig6-1-1-11.orldflmbhe-rtr1.cfl.rr.com [24.95.231.88]
4 17 ms 19 ms 21 ms gig4-2-0.orldflaabv-rtr3.cfl.rr.com [24.95.228.153]
5 16 ms 16 ms 13 ms te-3-3.car1.orlando1.level3.net [4.79.116.145]
6 17 ms 14 ms 16 ms ae-2-6.bar1.orlando1.level3.net [4.69.133.78]
7 25 ms 39 ms 35 ms ae-8-8.ebr1.atlanta2.level3.net [4.69.137.150]
8 25 ms 35 ms 24 ms ae-12-51.car2.atlanta1.level3.net [4.68.103.3]
9 28 ms 30 ms 26 ms 192.205.34.61
10 52 ms 53 ms 54 ms tbr1.attga.ip.att.net [12.122.96.10]
11 57 ms 66 ms 55 ms cr1.attga.ip.att.net [12.122.17.17]
12 55 ms 51 ms 51 ms cr2.wswdc.ip.att.net [12.122.1.174]
13 55 ms 59 ms 52 ms cr2.n54ny.ip.att.net [12.122.3.37]
14 53 ms 53 ms 61 ms cr1.cb1ma.ip.att.net [12.122.31.126]
15 52 ms 52 ms 62 ms tbr1.cb1ma.ip.att.net [12.122.20.138]
16 53 ms 64 ms 52 ms 12.127.5.93
17 52 ms 55 ms 52 ms 12-122-254-14.attens.net [12.122.254.14]
18 51 ms 57 ms 51 ms mdf001c7613r0003-gig-10-1.bos1.attens.net [12.130.0.170]
19 * * * Request timed out.
20 * ^C


 
Originally posted by: Crusty
Originally posted by: xSauronx
Originally posted by: Crusty
Originally posted by: Juddog
Originally posted by: Ns1
Who should take the blame here?

http://consumerist.com/5036696...arcraft-disconnections

Cliffs

- WoW players get disconnects, lags like crazy
- Blizzard blames TW
- TW says not their fault
- TW analyzes traceroutes of players saying "not on our network"
Click to expand...

I have an answer. TW sux monkey balls. I have their 15 megabit "premium" service and this whole past week all I get is around from 1-2 megabits, occasionally peaking at 6 megabits at 4 AM.

I have called their customer support line 4 times now and every time it's the same god damn thing:
* renew IP address (umm... renewing the IP address on my router helps the cable connection how?)
* reboot cable modem (ok... I have done this 20 times over the past 2 weeks and the speed still SUCKS)
* It must be your computer that's slow

Seriously their tech support (roadrunner in my area) just sucks big time. I will be calling them yet again tonight, and if I get told to renew my godamn IP address one more time I will flip out.
Click to expand...

You are not guaranteed 15mbps, that's what your connection is capable of. Unless you can show them you are getting packet loss, or that your modem is dropping connections they don't have to do a damn thing about it.
Click to expand...

sure thats technically, and legally true.

it still doesnt mean that when they sell someone a monthly service and *offer* the 15 that people should be ok when they regularly only get what you get with a lower-tier.

id be pissed if the 8 im supposed to get was mostly half that or less on a regular basis.

id say vote with your wallet, but not everyone has options. luckily i got to switch from crappy DSL with embarq (formerly sprint) to cable from suddenlink (formerly cox) and the connection now is *great*
Click to expand...

Oh I agree with that, but what the OP, you, or I think is of little concern to the ISP.

If you want dedicated bandwidth, pay for it.
Click to expand...

I sure wish I could afford the pipes I run for clients 😛. Under USDC I manage some servers. I have a personal VPS with 5mb dedicated. We have a 100mb dedicated server we use for Cpanel/WHM customers, loaded with RAID 6 750GB HD's. The pipe is 100mb dedicated which costs 2k$ per month alone. We also have a client who runs a 1Gb pipe directly to his rack, and that is HELLA expensive. 17,000$ a month for the pipe if I remember right.


But to the OP's response, I would lay blame at TW. It very much seems to be their network and interconnects with other ISP's.
 
Following the posted TRACERT reports one at a time (for the first few pages) in the WoW forum thread:

post 10) The problem was on Level3's network at hop 7.
post 18) High ping times at hop 4 on Verizon's network, hop 7 on ALTER.NET, and hop 10 on ATT's network.
post 35) Ping times are never over 100ms anywhere in the trace so I don't know why this guy even bothered posting.
post 38) Same as post 35 but this one never tops 83ms.
post 44) This guy has TCP/IP stack issues. 😛
post 50) Nothing over 96ms anywhere in the trace.
post 91) Ping times jump to a 'horrid' 82ms at hop 5 on ATT's network in Chicaco. 😛
post 120) Again, ping times jump to a 'deadly' 81ms at hop 12 on ATT's network in Chicago.
post 128) This poster's trace is pretty consistent betwen 60ms and 120ms through the whole trace. Nothing to see here.
post 134) Ping times jump from 50ms to 150ms at hop 9 on Road Runner's network.
post 135) High ping times at hop 5 on Road Runner, hops 7-10 on Level3, and 13-19 on ATT. All probably caused by problems at hop 5 on Road Runner's network.
post 136) Again, the terrible torture of 88ms pings at hop 10 on ATT's network. :roll:
post 149) Ping times jump to 168-200ms at hop 5 on ATT's network.


I don't feel like going through more than 8 pages of the thread, but with those examples, it's pretty easy to see that most of the people claiming problems really aren't having any, and the few that are seeing high pings are seeing them on routers owned by Verizon, Road Runner, and ATT, not on Time Warner's network.
 
Originally posted by: heymrdj


I sure wish I could afford the pipes I run for clients 😛. Under USDC I manage some servers. I have a personal VPS with 5mb dedicated. We have a 100mb dedicated server we use for Cpanel/WHM customers, loaded with RAID 6 750GB HD's. The pipe is 100mb dedicated which costs 2k$ per month alone. We also have a client who runs a 1Gb pipe directly to his rack, and that is HELLA expensive. 17,000$ a month for the pipe if I remember right.


But to the OP's response, I would lay blame at TW. It very much seems to be their network and interconnects with other ISP's.
Click to expand...

As you can see in from the tracerts they show the pings jumps are off TW's network and at the Level 3 to ATT handoff, Which timewarner is not responsible for.

 
So then the question is

Are all those WoW players hosed?

Do they have absolutely no hope of playing WoW?
 
I would say there hosed till someone makes a change, that Level 3 to ATT handoff is shit.
Level 3 could upgrade there line from att or vice versa, depends on whos buying the bandwidth.
Or someone could make a simple BGP route change that would push it to another link, Might raise ping 10-20ms overall but might be much more stable ie no spikes to 200-400
TW cable could push that taffic out another link, they don't just have Level 3.
 
Time Warner gets the blame for this. When you are a customer of an ISP, you expect that ISP to deliver good "best effort" performance to the broad Internet. If you have a problem reaching somewhere on the Internet with good service quality, either:

1. It's a problem with their network, in which case their job is to fix it (fast).
2. It's a problem with their peering, in which case their job is to fix it (does take some time though).
3. It's a problem with some other ISP downstream, in which case their job is to contact that ISP on your behaf, through their peering arrangements. It is possible and does happen that these efforts are entirely unsuccessful, in which case any peering intermediary not helping should be dumped, but if the ISP on the far end is the problem, there's only so much they can do. But in any case, you are the ISP's customer, and the ISP's job is to work with other ISPs on your behaf. You aren't the other ISPs' customers and they aren't obligated to you, but peering obligations do often obligate ISPs to help your ISP.

So it sounds like TW is falling into category (2) or (3). It's either totally their problem to change peering, or it's their responsibility to contact other ISPs on your behaf to resolve the transit issue.

This is another example of the "you get what you pay for" factor in ISPs. Good ISPs care about providing quality service to their customers, and have real engineers on staff who happen to know a lot of the real engineers on staff at other good ISPs, and know how to work with those folks to get problems resolved. Bad ISPs just say "not our problem" and leave you SOL.

TW is a bad ISP. Most residential ISPs are bad ISPs. You get what you pay for.

Incidentally, what's likely happenning behind the scenes is that Blizzard's network engineering people contacted TW trying to get this resolved, and TW responded by trying to sell Blizzard a private connection to TW's network. There's a lot of battles going on below the radar right now, where the residential ISPs in particular are trying to make both ends of the connection pay them, and both telcos and cable cos are not above being a little dirty about it.
 
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