• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

Can packet writing be unreliable?

Deanodarlo

Senior member
Please can someone tell me if packet writing on cdrw is safe?

Since CDRW media have a fixed lifespan, is it safe to use packet writing software to back up your files?

Are the disks prone to read/write errors thus losing 500+ mb of files?

Thanks for the advice.

Deano.
 
Don't do it, man!

The biggest cause of data loss I have seen (besides stupidity) is from screwed-up packet-written CDRW's.

<< Are the disks prone to read/write errors thus losing 500+ mb of files? >>

You got it. I wouldn't have the only backup of something important be on a packet-written CDRW.

CD-R's are so cheap these days that you are usually better off using them for backups. They are much more reliable than CDRW.
 
Based on my experiences with DirectCD, I would most definately say packet writing is unreliable. We use DirectCD to archive (not backup - we have a tape drive for that) documents and drawings onto CD-R media. The majority of the time it works great, but sometimes we end up with a disk that is unreadable in every machine (8) and is totally useless.

I personally would stay away from packet writing regardless of what media I was using, but especially CD-RW media. This of course is just my HO.

Workin' is right, just use CD-R.
 
Packet Writing is slighty more risky than standard CD Writing.
But if applied properly is quite safe. The latest DirectCD,
and I suspect the other packet programs as well, includes utilities
to maintain the CD format and allow for data recovery if need be.

The fixed lifespan of CDRW doesn't come into account, becuase the
packet writer is not trying to refresh and reuse sectors that
have already been written. IIRC, the packet program treats the
CDRW the same way as it treats a CD, if you overwrite data, it
just treats that section of the CD as invisible, and writes the
new data to unallocated space. When you run out of room on the
CDRW, then you will have to fully format it to start over again.

The biggest disadvantage of CDRW and Packet writing is that there
are still some systems and drives that will not recognize the
format from the Packet CD. Burning a CD in standard ISO9660 or
even Joliet spec can carry over better between dissimilar machines.

Having said that, I don't use Packet writing software right now
because I find it easier to keep data I plan to archive in its own
folder, and then burn that folder to CD normally when it gets big
enough. If you really need the feel of writing to a CD, then
create a dedicated 650MB partition, and use that to prepare your
archive in to burn to the CD later.

With the newest versions of DirectCD (3.04 and 5.0), and the newer
&quot;Burn-Proof&quot; types of CD-writers, the performance of packet writing
will be much better. I hope to try it out again when I get a
new CDRW, but I don't hold high hopes for it becoming a popular
standard. PacketCD is best for temporary archives or &quot;working&quot;
archives, but not as a permanent storage idea.
 
Workin' and Blue Weasel,

This is very interesting and of some concern to me. I have been using a slow HP 8200e USB-connected writer and CD-RW media with packet writing to perform my personal data backups from my notebook computer for over a year now. The single failure of a CD-RW disc occurred, apparently, because of a power failure during a write. (The notebook didn't die, but the CD writer did.) I have created many CD-Rs, with and without packet writing. I have been unable to close a CD-R on some occasions, but the data has always been available through UDF reader. (The failure to close issue was not always due to inadequate space for the TOC, having happened a couple of times with over 100 Megs reported free on the disc.)

The backups have been performed on a daily basis, in duplicate. As an experiment I have kept using one old Memorex CD-RW which has been written, rewritten, erased, formatted many dozens of times without ever experiencing any data loss on it. (I was curious to see how much safety margin, if any, was included in the commonly stated 1,000 writes limit.)

I use CD-Rs for backup and archiving for some smaller clients. Their machines differ widely from mine, but all use the USB-connected HP writers. None of them has experienced any data loss. (And, believe me, that's incredible with some of these people. One pro bono client had six system restores last year.)

The only packet writing software I've used has been DirectCD -- simply because it came with the drives. I certainly can't lay claim to any expertise on the matter. I migrated to Windows from big iron and AIX a little over a year ago, so I just shopped and bought and used. I've just gone along on the path of least resistance, not troubling myself about getting fast drives or defragging hard drives before copying data from them to the writers. The only operating system I'm using with the CD writers is W2K, and I have been religious about getting the very latest updates for the EasyCD Creator and DirectCD software. I've assumed that this experience would be more or less common. But your advisories here, and the experiences of others reported in various message threads here and on other online forums has made me wonder about the technology and / or my luck.

I assume that you are using speedier writers than I. Do you suppose that faster writers, at the present state of the technology, are simply more prone to error than slower drives for some reason? Is there, perhaps, an important difference in the use we make of our systems while writing CDs? I do use my browser online, exchange email, and perform some light text editing while doing backups -- nothing involving any heavy hard drive access. I have my clients who use this type of equipment quit all applications when they do backups. Neither I nor my clients do any of the sundry things, like quitting AV software or other &quot;background&quot; processes, that are supposed to help minimize the risk of error during CD creation or packet writing.

I should emphasize that I am paranoid enough to have all backups to CD-R or CD-RW media checked for integrity and done in duplicate. Off-site copies of everything are maintained, and the CDs themselves are kept in labeled, soft-lined wallets. The clients using this type of backup scheme are all very small businesses / public service organizations which find purchasing this type of backup system to be much cheaper (and easier to understand) than tape subsystems. Their data is important to them, so I check it for integrity myself on a regular basis, and I've insisted that they learn how to do this as well. Nonetheless, I've found this method of backup to be at least as reliable as high quality tape backup systems, though obviously a little less convenient to use.

If you spot any apparent differences in implementation or behavior that might account for the difference in our experiences, I would appreciate it if you'd point it out. I don't want to be living in a fool's paradise. I'm a retired physicist, not an IT professional by training, though I've certainly had a lot of experience in designing and maintaining data systems on other platforms. All of these clients are pro bono, but that's not to say they don't deserve and need first-rate service from their equipment and their media. I'm a big believer in data safety and would not want to be placing any of these people at risk for data loss.

Regards,
Jim
 
Jim,

Your paranoia knows no bounds. 🙂 You may have more backups than I do.

I've had two friends that have lost data via packet writing. However, one was with an old Sony 4x and crape Prassi-based software. For me, it just isn't worth the possible problems. I just drag and drop to an archive folder, then burn DAO when I want to. The very few times that I want to reuse a cd-rw, I still DAO it, then quick erase if I ever get around to it.

However, you seem to have setups that you are comfortable with, and that work well for you. So, don't break what is fixed. However, if you do decide to go with other burner programs, consider having a very recent boot partition backup first, so you can easily go back to what brung ya. For me, I try to make several tweaks/new installs/hacks within a couple days of each other, only after making a backup. If I get tired of troubleshooting, then it's to the backup, I go.
--Randy
 
Jim, don't want you to worry without cause - and in your case I don't think you have reason for concern.

My burner is a BTC 2x2x6 IDE drive - I don't think they make them slower than that! 😉 and I never have anything else running while burning anything to any kind of recordable CD. I've had a few CD-RW discs &quot;go bad&quot; after having packet-written data to them - could not be read or written no matter what. Not even erasable to use with DAO writing - they weren't recognized as any sort of disc in any type of drive. Other friends and clients of mine have had similar problems using DirectCD and HP, Sony, Philips and Yamaha brand drives.

But do not infer from my comments here that the packet-written CD-RW discs &quot;went bad&quot; while sitting on the shelf! That is not the case. Write errors were not discovered until trying to read the data at a later date. I've never had a good one (i.e., one I could read OK after writing, ejecting, and re-inserting) spontaneously self-destruct.

I would feel confident that due to your backup verification procedure, the backups you have made are indeed safe and effective, and would remain so. It's just that most people don't take the time to verify their copies are valid so they think they have backed up the file when in fact it is corrupt. Your &quot;belt and suspenders&quot; approach is the correct one when it comes to important data (I'm sure you already knew that).
 
Thanks, Randy. I guess I'll just keep on keepin' on. I already do registry and system state backups when changes are made in system configurations.

Paranoia has made me very happy. 😀

Regards,
Jim
 
Thank you for the reassurance, Workin'. It used to be that losing my data was my worst nightmare. That was when I worked in medical physics. Now that I'm retired, my worst nightmare is losing someone else's data. The data I deal with now is not life and death as it was at one time, but it's serious enough to the people who need it.

There are a couple of them, including the guy whose system had to be rebuilt a half-dozen times, who think of me as a tyrant. I don't allow them to install anything on their systems, and I insist on at least daily backup with verification. I'm the only one who reconfigures systems or installs software, and I make them follow through with me step-by-step when I do. I figure they owe me that consideration in exchange for free support at 2 AM on Catholic holidays. 😀

Regards,
Jim
 
Well, I?m speaking from a victim?s point of view. I wont take up your time so I?ll make this short.

I got my self into a jam a while back; my installation on Win2k was going bad though that?s after a year of not reformatting, or never having a single problem at all. It could also be I was forcing to many non-supported programs onto Win2k, though I also believe the installation was just getting old. Anyway, I deicide to back up whatever I could before I got myself into major trouble, and lose a lot of work etc. I used Direct CD to accomplish this, though maybe not the best way, but it was the quickest I could think of without forcing a crash, and not being able to reboot. It took me no more then 30 minutes and four-half CD-R?s later (not much if you think of it), and I was done.

After reformatting, putting all my programs back (only Win2k supported programs this time), and installing Direct CD back in, I tried to put back my files from the CD-R?s which I used as my back up. When I tried to access the disk I was denied, ok, I tried again, but again nothing. I tried so many ways to get it to read but nothing worked.

Well, I cried for about an hour and got over it later that day. I?m sure a lot of you have had or are having great success, but there are the unfortunate few such as myself who have not had great success with packet writing.

[EDIT]

Another thing for you experts out there! What?s the best way to back up files, documents, images (i.e. Word, Excel, PhotoShop etc)? I want to put a large amount of these on a CD-R, what's the best way? I use/have Adaptec Easy CD Creator 4.0 Deluxe, and also, what are the best CD-R?s for doing this (not the burners but the disk)?
 
NOX - So hopefully you learned a valuable lesson: Backup without verify is a total waste of time or at best slightly better than nothing.

As far as saving you big files ona CD-R, Adaptec Easy CD Creator will work fine for that. Nice and simple straightforward disk write.

I haven't found any CD-R's that haven't worked fine with my writer. Others might disagree. I have used hundreds of Kodak's with NO problems. Also have used hundreds of no-name disks from Quill Office Supply with no problems. Back in the olden days I bought a box of 10 Verbatims and not a single one worked. I think that was an isolated incident, since I haven't had any problems since.
 


<< So hopefully you learned a valuable lesson: Backup without verify is a total waste of time or at best slightly better than nothing. >>

Oh yes I have! That was dumb of me to not verify first before dumping the OS.

Thanks for the info.
 
Thanks for that discussion everyone - it helped tremendously.

I've just got a cd burner and needed to figure out the best way to use it for data storage.

I'm going to use a cdrw to back up my storage partition when I feel it's required - probably about one every few weeks.
Each time I'll burn all at once (CDFS) using Nero and then verify the data by using a file comparison (achieved with the excellent free utility cdcheck from fusion).

Once the cdrw is full, I?ll burn it's contents onto a cdr, verify, reformat the cdrw and continue the process again.

Eventually the cdrw will die and I?ll have to replace it, but without the expense of data loss.

This allows me to use cdrw and cdr disks efficiently.

PS Thinking about it, cdrw are also good for system restore disks. Using them with ghost to keep 'snapshots' of your computer system from the last few months will work the same as restore on windows Me. If you want to update a particular snapshot just return the cd's.

One other thing, if anyone is having trouble with the infamous read only attribute associated with copying files from cdr/w to hard drive and doesn?t want to use packet software, here are a couple of solutions I came up with:

1) Use an archive program like winzip to store the files before burning them to cd.

2) Use good old dos. Open notepad and write:

attrib -r X /s
exit

;where X is desired path of the freshly copied cd files on your hard drive. The -r removes the read only attribute; the /s includes all subfolders in the directory.

I think winme users can use the right mouse button to do this, but on my win98 the file properties box only allows one directory to be changed at a time. The above 'dos' solution overcomes this.

Thanks once again everyone.

Deano
 
Just a few corrections to my previous post (sorry for the errors - I must have been sorting this cdrw drive out all day and i'm getting a bit tired now!)

Use good old dos. Open notepad and write:

attrib -r X /s
exit

;where X is desired path of the freshly copied cd files on your hard drive. The -r removes the read only attribute; the /s includes all subfolders in the directory.

Ment to add:
After writing the lines in notepad, save it as readoff.bat. Now when you want to reset all the file attributes in the selected directory, all you have to do is click on the file!

Deano
 
Back
Top