Can Ohio get an election right?

[RightIsWrong]

WTF??? You would think that they would have some other way of putting someone in office other than a freaking flip of a coin? What a contingency plan they have there.

Source

A court erred when declaring a winner in a city council election that was so close that a coin toss and two recounts did not resolve who won, the Ohio Supreme Court ruled Wednesday.

The court said Rick Bain should have been allowed to present evidence he says shows that a punch-card ballot with a hanging chad is invalid. If a lower court agrees, that would give Bain a one-vote victory over incumbent Rick Taft for a council seat in the Cleveland suburb of Pepper Pike.

An initial vote count in the Nov. 8 election ended in a tie between Bain and Taft, a second cousin of Gov. Bob Taft. A tie-breaking coin toss handed the seat to Taft, but a formal recount that followed found Bain ahead by one vote - 1,124 to 1,123.

Bain assumed the council seat for a time, but Taft believed he had spotted a single hanging chad and asked for a second recount, which again ended in a tie. In March, the Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court gave Taft the seat, citing the earlier coin toss.

Bain argues that the ballot with the hanging chad should not count because it is attached by three corners.

The Supreme Court ordered the lower court to consider additional evidence before reissuing a ruling.

"The common pleas court appears to have based its decision solely on the parties' pleadings and the court-supervised recount," said Chief Justice Tom Moyer, writing for the majority.

After the case is settled, the issue of hanging chads is unlikely to re-emerge in Ohio, which held its first punch-card-free statewide election in May.

 

[zendari]

Tiebreakers always come down to coin tosses in the end. See professional sports.

That said, ballots with stray marks, hanging chads, or anything not 100% proper shouldn't be counted. Perhaps people should learn how to fill in a sheet the way most 8 year olds could.

 

[SKoprowski]

Just wait for the Nov election for governor- the Republican candidate is in charge of the voting for Ohio!!

 

[sdifox]

what happened to good old piece of paper and pencil? Last I checked (no pun intended), checking off a box from a list works.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: sdifox
what happened to good old piece of paper and pencil? Last I checked (no pun intended), checking off a box from a list works.

We do that in Canada.
Put an "X", checkmark, whatever you want next to the guy you want.

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: sdifox
what happened to good old piece of paper and pencil? Last I checked (no pun intended), checking off a box from a list works.

We do that in Canada.
Put an "X", checkmark, whatever you want next to the guy you want.

I know, I am from Toronto.

 

[trenchfoot]

what happened to good old piece of paper and pencil? Last I checked (no pun intended), checking off a box from a list works

the people that want to do what they did in the last elections will absolutely prevent that from ever happening due to "economics" and other such compelling reasons that supercede the need for fidelity and integrity in the voting process.

edit - spl

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: zendari
Tiebreakers always come down to coin tosses in the end. See professional sports.

That said, ballots with stray marks, hanging chads, or anything not 100% proper shouldn't be counted. Perhaps people should learn how to fill in a sheet the way most 8 year olds could.

The punch card system can easily leave a hanging 'chad'... we ran tests here locally and found that a punch that does not go totally to the bottom may not remove the chad.. many elderly and even younger folks made errors punching chads..
Of 1000 punch type ballots in our test.... 498 ballots had at least one 'hanging chad'. This was using the actually voting 'machine' that was used in the previous election.. We then went to another device as a result of the testing..
498 out of 1000 and the required punches were 12 per ballot.. and the total 'hanging chads' were 523... In some cases and in some jurisdictions the entire ballot was tossed and in others only the 'hangs' were not counted.. which made for nutty election results if the real election was anything like our test...

edit: I should add that they hung by one, two or three corners or where the little gizmo is that holds it in place.. I don't recall how many were held to the card by the various edges.. but I seem to recall most were held by one or two corners..


And Zendari... coin tosses are not the tie breaker means in all professional sports..
Baseball, Football, Soccer, Tennis, Basketball, Golf... etc.. don't give victory by a coin toss...

Maybe in the Little League in Left turn Right, Michigan they may..

 

[zendari]

They use coin tosses in stuff like playoff seeding....like elections and unlike actual games you don't have the luxury of an overtime.

I guess it is kind of telling how Gore voters were unable to vote back in 2000 because their dumbass selves couldn't use the ballot.

Utilitizing any of these random imperfect standards opens up the subjectivity of the people making the standard.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: zendari

Utilitizing any of these random imperfect standards opens up the subjectivity of the people making the standard.

So then I take it you are for electronic ballots that are conducted on machines running open source software and that gives people paper receipts as well?

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: zendari

Utilitizing any of these random imperfect standards opens up the subjectivity of the people making the standard.

So then I take it you are for electronic ballots that are conducted on machines running open source software and that gives people paper receipts as well?

I assume all americans are for the fastest, fairest, most efficient, and most foolproof voting setup.

 

[DurocShark]

Bingo markers FTW!

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: zendari
They use coin tosses in stuff like playoff seeding....like elections and unlike actual games you don't have the luxury of an overtime.

I guess it is kind of telling how Gore voters were unable to vote back in 2000 because their dumbass selves couldn't use the ballot.

Utilitizing any of these random imperfect standards opens up the subjectivity of the people making the standard.

The folks taking the test I mentioned above were surprised at the results being they live in a rather affluent area of San Diego County and each had at least a college degree.. Where I live hardly anyone could be considered a 'Dumb-ass' given the housing costs start at over 1m$.... Nope they saw what they just did and as I said almost 50% of the ballots had an issue..
In the election that did occur using the same machine and all 'tossed' ballots was not even news until after the 2000 Florida fiasco.


Zendari, hehehehhehe quite telling is the response you make regarding your incorrect 'coin toss' analogy...
You do have an 'overtime' provision in elections as well.. or have you simply dismissed reality and inserted what you think the election rules ought to be and then decided that is the law.... Recounts are one such 'overtime' provision and there is always challenges to the courts etc..
I don't like pushing a point as I am in this case but must cuz you post as if when the ballots are counted using what ever means they do that that is final and if a tie you toss a coin.. that is not the will of the people yet.. but, two candidates could opt for a coin toss and have in the past..

 

[VooDooAddict]

If they agreed to the coin toss I think it's a shame they go back to the courts.

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: tweaker2

what happened to good old piece of paper and pencil? Last I checked (no pun intended), checking off a box from a list works

the people that want to do what they did in the last elections will absolutely prevent that from ever happening due to "economics" and other such compelling reasons that supercede the need for fidelity and integrity in the voting process.

edit - spl

I mean even if you want electronic counting, you can still do that. I remember in one municipal election we got this big ass cardboard and you use a bingo stamper (basically) to cover the box completely ( the boxes have plenty of spaces in between) and then take that (covered by a provided sleeve), the election officer slides that into the scanner, it gets counted and the vote drops in the box. If there is a dispote they go back to paper. Very simple, very efficient.

I still don't understand how federal election is not completely controlled by the federal government in the states. There should be 1 method of uniform voting, and none of these voter list shannanigans such as ex con can't vote.

 

[LunarRay]

"Section 4. The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators."

The Constitution vests with the States that right, however....

This site lists some congressional involvement

some other info on standards

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: zendari
Tiebreakers always come down to coin tosses in the end. See professional sports.

That said, ballots with stray marks, hanging chads, or anything not 100% proper shouldn't be counted. Perhaps people should learn how to fill in a sheet the way most 8 year olds could.

Yet another mindless, . . . er . . . , timeless gem from the random-word-generator of Zendari.

Pray tell: What does "filling in a sheet" have to do with anything when the issue is a chad hanging on a punch-card ballot?

hahahahaha

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
"Section 4. The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators."

The Constitution vests with the States that right, however....

This site lists some congressional involvement

some other info on standards

So why doesn't the congress just do that, fix the damn thing if the only inmutable thing is place of choosing senetors? Assuming there is enough honest ones...

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: sdifox

Originally posted by: LunarRay
"Section 4. The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators."

The Constitution vests with the States that right, however....

This site lists some congressional involvement

some other info on standards

So why doesn't the congress just do that, fix the damn thing if the only inmutable thing is place of choosing senetors? Assuming there is enough honest ones...

After the 2000 election the report generated by the U. S. Commission on Civil Rights outlined numerous issues with the mechanics of voting and the disenfranchisement of mainly minority voters and specifically those African Americans in Florida..
But no one listens or reads, I guess.
I feel there ought to be 'universal' voting via some device or system that insures accuracy and enables every citizen to vote... I doubt every sitting member of Congress desires that.... depending on who they are and who may vote that don't now..
Not sure the answer but would think it to be quite simple... We can get to the moon but not the polls and when we do get to the polls we may or may not have voted... unless we live in an area determined to insure voter cast ballots count...

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: zendari
They use coin tosses in stuff like playoff seeding....like elections and unlike actual games you don't have the luxury of an overtime.

I guess it is kind of telling how Gore voters were unable to vote back in 2000 because their dumbass selves couldn't use the ballot.

Utilitizing any of these random imperfect standards opens up the subjectivity of the people making the standard.

perhaps such a system should be implimented, a run-off in case the election is close.

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

After the 2000 election the report generated by the U. S. Commission on Civil Rights outlined numerous issues with the mechanics of voting and the disenfranchisement of mainly minority voters and specifically those African Americans in Florida..
But no one listens or reads, I guess.
I feel there ought to be 'universal' voting via some device or system that insures accuracy and enables every citizen to vote... I doubt every sitting member of Congress desires that.... depending on who they are and who may vote that don't now..
Not sure the answer but would think it to be quite simple... We can get to the moon but not the polls and when we do get to the polls we may or may not have voted... unless we live in an area determined to insure voter cast ballots count...

So report came out, gets 15 minute airtime, then gets buried with the Ark, got it.

Isn't there a way for the public to initiate such a motion or is it strictly though the senetors?

 

[Used Rugs]

We do not have fair election here in the states. They are fixed. This is known.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: sdifox

Originally posted by: LunarRay

After the 2000 election the report generated by the U. S. Commission on Civil Rights outlined numerous issues with the mechanics of voting and the disenfranchisement of mainly minority voters and specifically those African Americans in Florida..
But no one listens or reads, I guess.
I feel there ought to be 'universal' voting via some device or system that insures accuracy and enables every citizen to vote... I doubt every sitting member of Congress desires that.... depending on who they are and who may vote that don't now..
Not sure the answer but would think it to be quite simple... We can get to the moon but not the polls and when we do get to the polls we may or may not have voted... unless we live in an area determined to insure voter cast ballots count...

So report came out, gets 15 minute airtime, then gets buried with the Ark, got it.

Isn't there a way for the public to initiate such a motion or is it strictly though the senetors?

The commission fowarded to Justice quite a few 'referrals' to prosecute.. there were clear violations of law..

Congress.. the House and Senate and signed by the President can and should mandate uniform means to cast ballots that are to deal with Federal Elections.. the States can vote on toilet paper so long as it don't violate other Constitutional law. Motor voter and ex felon voting are all state rights stuff as is the means to recount... or that is how I understood it before the 2000 election recount fiasco.
The public always can summon their representive via email or mail or telepone and tell them just what you'd want them to do.. they represent you.. or should.. In fact, there are probably 50 of them that I email often.. the chairpersons of the various committees My Senators and Congresspeople when they are not in jail.. (Cunningham) .. all I get back is a form letter usually unless it was to do with my field of expertise.. (mouse traps.. heheh)
We all spend hours perhaps posting on threads but just how many let Congress know how they feel on an issue.. not many, I'd wager..

That 15 minutes is all anything deserves if apathy demands it.. We managed to 'elect' a President by USSC decisions as well as party politics with the Sec State Harris in Florida but hardly a voice was heard about the thousands who didn't even get to vote and should have.. Had all who wanted to vote been able to cast their ballots Gore would have won not-with-standing giving Bush the benefit of doubt on the recount... Some 15,000 - 20,000 never got to vote.. and tried..

 

[sdifox]

I watched the Gore speech on how he is stopping the fight and I was utterly stunned. The pusher of democracy (USofA) fell victime to the things it is fighting?

 

[Used Rugs]

sdifox,

What are you talking about? Is it the 2000 election results or global warming?