I fix PCs and therefore end up with a lot of dead junk with XP licenses. I often use them in new builds (thanks microsoft for making vista a flop initially). Al lot of people just won't do vista so they have value to me. I don't sell them per se but I am always on with the Micro$oft people getting them re-activated and always completely forthcoming about how I obtained them. I see no reason one would not be able to sell them, but something about it makes me worry, so if there is a reason not please tell me, and if there is no reasone please be absolutely certain if you answer inthe affirmative. Thanks in advance!
Can I legally sell XP licenses from dead machines people give me?
- Thread starter markjs
- Start date
postmortemIA
Diamond Member
- Jul 11, 2006
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That goes without saying, but when I use them on new builds and they are not installed on any other machine Microsoft sets me up with fresh activations, and I explained exactly the situation more than once. I suspect there is nothing illegal about selling them.
More importantly though, is, will anyone mod-wise freak out? I will not sell any until a mod tells me I can whether it's legal or not. I should have explained that in the first post. Any way I slice it I end up money ahead. If I can't sell one I often end up fixing or building machines for people who need one and I tack it on the price. Pretty sure that is legal because Micro$oft almost always denies the activation till I call and when I explain I have never been denied....
More importantly though, is, will anyone mod-wise freak out? I will not sell any until a mod tells me I can whether it's legal or not. I should have explained that in the first post. Any way I slice it I end up money ahead. If I can't sell one I often end up fixing or building machines for people who need one and I tack it on the price. Pretty sure that is legal because Micro$oft almost always denies the activation till I call and when I explain I have never been denied....
The more I think on it, the more I am positive they are legal to sell. The only issue is that it only be installed on one machine. Too many times I have done this and talked to real people on the Micro$oft activation line and never have they hesitated much less denied me.
So the real issue is would them mods allow it? I am not even sure if I want to sell any but I would like that question answered....
So the real issue is would them mods allow it? I am not even sure if I want to sell any but I would like that question answered....
It has been said over and over again that OEM licenses are tied to the motherboard/system they were originally sold on. Read the MS EULA. The very first response to you said this but you apparently chose to ignore it.
kag
Golden Member
No I don't "sell" anything really, I really do builds for friends mostly and if they want to compensate me I ask for $40 or less depending on ther financial problems. I just know a lot of legit shops do this exact thing and if it was reallysomething Microsoft cares about I cannot imagine them not telling their activation team to blacklist the keys. I am absolutely convinced this is a legal grey area, and if it went to a court it could go to the better lawyer.
I know two local shops that sell them exactly as I've described, and one guy I have a lot of reason to believe would not dare do anything that would put him at legal risk. They charge $50 and $80 for them.
Also the orginal machines have ceased to exist, that is why I think M$ does not care, they would rather have you doing what I do than piracy, and they'd rather you have Windows than Linux.
I know two local shops that sell them exactly as I've described, and one guy I have a lot of reason to believe would not dare do anything that would put him at legal risk. They charge $50 and $80 for them.
Also the orginal machines have ceased to exist, that is why I think M$ does not care, they would rather have you doing what I do than piracy, and they'd rather you have Windows than Linux.
Besides since last night when I posted the topic I have only built 15 machines! LOL
I just wanted to know if anyone could convince me it was totally not kosher and nobody has. I realize that the EULA suggests that it's tied to a motherboard, but it does not say anything about when that board dies, and until it does I think I answered my own question as much as I am going to. But if anyone is actually a lawyer or paralegal, I would really value that person's input.
I just wanted to know if anyone could convince me it was totally not kosher and nobody has. I realize that the EULA suggests that it's tied to a motherboard, but it does not say anything about when that board dies, and until it does I think I answered my own question as much as I am going to. But if anyone is actually a lawyer or paralegal, I would really value that person's input.
It isnt a grey area and if small shops are doing this they are running the risk of getting a smackdown by Microsoft.
HardcoreRobot
Lifer
- Nov 7, 2000
- 16,403
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whatever helps you sleep man! i think the correct answer has already been posted multiple times.
- May 13, 2003
- 13,704
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Imo they have bigger fish to fry, if he starts churning out 100 of these a week it might be a different story, but if the OP is losing sleep over this (and sounds like he is) it's probably not worth the stress.
mechBgon
Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
- Oct 31, 1999
- 30,699
- 1
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And the main question was whether it's OK or not. If the OP wants to give his friends/customers legit licenses to use Windows, then re-using key codes off of defunct systems is not how it's done.
A better bet here, is to rejuvenate the "dead" PC, unless the motherboard is toast or the PSU nuked everything on its way out.
A better bet here, is to rejuvenate the "dead" PC, unless the motherboard is toast or the PSU nuked everything on its way out.
VirtualLarry
No Lifer
- Aug 25, 2001
- 56,572
- 10,208
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Well, on one hand, forced product bundling is illegal, and in some countries in Europe, they actually won a court decision against Microsoft, that allowed them to freely unbundle the OS software from OEM computers and then resell each freely in the market.
In a free-market economy, this thing would become commonplace, but unfortunately in the US we do not have a free-market economy. It is controlled by an unwholesome alliance of gov'ts who are in corporate pockets (think $$$ lobbiests here).
So in the "free" nation of the US of A, it should be possible to legally unbundle and resell, but ... you might be in for a court battle if MS really pressed it.
One thing is for certain, it is NOT piracy, in any stretch of the word. MS has already been paid for their software, the only question is, do they have the right to force users to pay, and re-pay, and re-pay, for the same thing over and over again, or do the users have the legal right to use what they paid for once, and to keep re-using (and/or re-selling) as the user, and legal owner, sees fit.
If you are only refurbishing the OEM machines that have the COA attached, and reselling them (hardware and OS), that is unquestionably legal.
VirtualLarry
No Lifer
- Aug 25, 2001
- 56,572
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RebateMonger
Elite Member
- Dec 24, 2005
- 11,586
- 0
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As mechBgon stated, Vista BUSINESS (and ULTIMATE) OEM versions include downgrade rights to XP Professional. So do the Volume Licensed versions of Vista.
Microsoft: Downgrade Rights Chart
Most software licensing is covered by civil law rather than criminal law. So anybody can sue over anything they want and may or may not win. It often depends on which side has more money.
If I was Microsoft, I'd tend to be generous with OEM licensing, since customer relations are important and the loss of a single OEM licensing lawsuit could be significant.
mechBgon
Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
- Oct 31, 1999
- 30,699
- 1
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Yeah, here's Microsoft's PDF file with further info, including exactly how to use downgrade rights: http://download.microsoft.com/...yoemreferencesheet.pdf
This is why no one needs to freak out when WinXP licenses are no longer available for purchase. As long as you can get OEM Vista licenses, you're all set. And as noted in the PDF, it's not irreversible, either.
RebateMonger
Elite Member
- Dec 24, 2005
- 11,586
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There's lots of information about OEM license transfers in this Micrososft licensing presentation. In particular, see the "Windows Desktop Licensing Rules" and the "Unlicensed Windows Desktop Scenarios" tabs.
There's also a large section in this Microsoft KB article. explaining Microsoft's policy on OEM software license transfers.
"Users who run a Microsoft Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) operating system may upgrade or replace most of the hardware components on the computer and still maintain the license for the original Microsoft OEM operating system software provided by the OEM, with the exception of an upgrade or a replacement of the motherboard. An upgrade or a replacement of the motherboard is considered to create a new personal computer. Therefore, Microsoft OEM operating system software cannot be transferred from another computer. If the motherboard is upgraded or replaced for reasons other than a defect then a new computer is created, and a new operating system license is required. If the motherboard is replaced because of a defect, the user does not need to acquire a new operating system license for the computer. The motherboard replacement must be the same make and model, or the same manufacturer?s replacement or equivalent, as defined by that manufacturer?s warranty. The reason for this licensing rule primarily relates to the end-user license agreement (EULA) and the support of the software covered by that EULA. The EULA is a set of usage rights granted to the end-user by the computer manufacturer. The EULA relates only to rights for that software as installed on that particular computer. The System Builder is required to support the software on that individual computer.
Understanding that end-users, over time, upgrade their computers with different components, Microsoft views the CPU as the one remaining base component that still defines that original computer. Because the motherboard contains the CPU, when the motherboard is replaced for reasons other than defect, a new computer is essentially created. Therefore, the original OEM cannot be expected to support this new computer that they did not manufacture."
And, no, please don't ask me what that second paragraph means. I can't figure it out, either. :shocked:
There's also a large section in this Microsoft KB article. explaining Microsoft's policy on OEM software license transfers.
"Users who run a Microsoft Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) operating system may upgrade or replace most of the hardware components on the computer and still maintain the license for the original Microsoft OEM operating system software provided by the OEM, with the exception of an upgrade or a replacement of the motherboard. An upgrade or a replacement of the motherboard is considered to create a new personal computer. Therefore, Microsoft OEM operating system software cannot be transferred from another computer. If the motherboard is upgraded or replaced for reasons other than a defect then a new computer is created, and a new operating system license is required. If the motherboard is replaced because of a defect, the user does not need to acquire a new operating system license for the computer. The motherboard replacement must be the same make and model, or the same manufacturer?s replacement or equivalent, as defined by that manufacturer?s warranty. The reason for this licensing rule primarily relates to the end-user license agreement (EULA) and the support of the software covered by that EULA. The EULA is a set of usage rights granted to the end-user by the computer manufacturer. The EULA relates only to rights for that software as installed on that particular computer. The System Builder is required to support the software on that individual computer.
Understanding that end-users, over time, upgrade their computers with different components, Microsoft views the CPU as the one remaining base component that still defines that original computer. Because the motherboard contains the CPU, when the motherboard is replaced for reasons other than defect, a new computer is essentially created. Therefore, the original OEM cannot be expected to support this new computer that they did not manufacture."
And, no, please don't ask me what that second paragraph means. I can't figure it out, either. :shocked:
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