Can ethernet, coax, speaker wires share stud-holes with power cables behind wall?

[Doppel]

Just had some framing done and I didn't get a chance to talk to the electrician today. Drywall is coming up soon and I need to run a bunch of media cables. Is it to code to share runs with electric?

 

[NL5]

no.

edit - it's against code, and wouldn't work very well either. you really don't want to have signal/low volt cables running parallel with power (in close proximity).

 

[highland145]

Good excuse to buy a new cordless drill and some paddle bits.

 

[Doppel]

How far should they be? They're going to inevitably cross over from time to time, but otherwise there may be some parallels.

It actually looks like maybe I should not even run audio next to ethernet...?

 

[spidey07]

Realistically you'll be just fine and they don't interfere with each other. Twisted pair and electrical can be run right next to each other with zero problem (there's a reason it's twisted). Same with speaker cables.

I however don't like running low-level interconnect near power.

 

[Platypus]

haha you said stud hole

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Realistically you'll be just fine and they don't interfere with each other. Twisted pair and electrical can be run right next to each other with zero problem (there's a reason it's twisted). Same with speaker cables.

I however don't like running low-level interconnect near power.

Not true. Especially with speaker wire.

Parallel runs should be at least 3' apart. You can cross directly if you have to. All the low voltage stuff can run parallel to each other but never mix your romex with your data/AV stuff.

 

[spidey07]

Not true. Especially with speaker wire.

Parallel runs should be at least 3' apart. You can cross directly if you have to. All the low voltage stuff can run parallel to each other but never mix your romex with your data/AV stuff.

EIA/TIA says it's just fine unless it's high voltage and then requires like 18inches IIRC.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

EIA/TIA says it's just fine unless it's high voltage and then requires like 18inches IIRC.

Standard practice is to run them apart from each other. Residential norms are 3'. I can't tell you how many times I've been in a house with a 60Hz hum or wonky data runs... when you flip the breaker on the circuit that the wire was run too close to... wow. Problem solved.

<-- 15 years of high-end home automation.
<-- 20 years of AV sales and system design.

 

[Doppel]

I have the room for 3' so whether it's overkill or not that's what I'll go with. Data and AV and Coax ok in parallel or should I separate by a little on them also?

 

[NL5]

Realistically you'll be just fine and they don't interfere with each other. Twisted pair and electrical can be run right next to each other with zero problem (there's a reason it's twisted).

Standard practice is to run them apart from each other.

"Standard Practice" is due to permitting factors. You generally can't get an electrical inspection to pass with NEC violations. Putting low volt and power thru the same stud hole is an NEC violation. Your jurisdiction may not have adopted the NEC though.

If I were wiring my house, I'd keep them 12-18" apart.

BTW - NEC is for safety only, it has nothing to do with performance. But as others have said, you'll be better off performance-wise as well.

 

[Nintendesert]

I wouldn't do 3 feet, that's huge. 12-18" is more than fine. But that's for my personal stuff, if professionally I'd just hire Whoozy.

 

[bfdd]

Standard practice is to run them apart from each other. Residential norms are 3'. I can't tell you how many times I've been in a house with a 60Hz hum or wonky data runs... when you flip the breaker on the circuit that the wire was run too close to... wow. Problem solved.

<-- 15 years of high-end home automation.
<-- 20 years of AV sales and system design.

I know one guy who replaced his home theater system like 3 or 4 times before he found out that was what was causing the issue. I'd always run them separate if you can help it.

 

[Rubycon]

:biggrin: @ unbalanced home audio.

 

[spidey07]

Standard practice is to run them apart from each other. Residential norms are 3'. I can't tell you how many times I've been in a house with a 60Hz hum or wonky data runs... when you flip the breaker on the circuit that the wire was run too close to... wow. Problem solved.

<-- 15 years of high-end home automation.
<-- 20 years of AV sales and system design.

And I've been building networks for over 20. If 120v interfered with a data run then the data run wasn't properly installed and grounded. Same with the ground loop hum, inproper grounding. If you look in any data center or rack you will see power and data run right next to each other. Now under the tiles they will be in separate trays because it's high voltage and spec calls for keeping them separate. But not for 120v.

 

[DrPizza]

no.

edit - it's against code, and wouldn't work very well either. you really don't want to have signal/low volt cables running parallel with power (in close proximity).

First, no, I wouldn't do this, at least with anything related to a sound system, speaker wires, etc. However, as far as I'm aware, there's nothing in the NEC that says it's against code. In fact, the NEC specifically says it's not against code: page 543, 300.4 (text under diagram): "Signal and alarm wiring is run through the same stud holes as the NM cables. The NEC does not prohibit use of more than one cable through a single hole." Further, here's an illustration from Mike Holt: http://www.mikeholt.com/onlinetraining/page_images/1008708852_2.gif

In fact, as far as I can tell (I was researching this the other day), there's no minimum distance required in residential for water lines & NM-B. (I'm running water and electric out to my garage & the lines will have to run parallel to each other, about 4 inches apart, for 6 feet.)

Incidentally, I'm putting in a 100Amp breaker panel in the garage. The garage is attached to the house. Does anyone know if I'm required to run a separate ground to a grounding rod? Or is connecting it to the ground on the main breaker panel sufficient?

 

[NL5]

First, no, I wouldn't do this, at least with anything related to a sound system, speaker wires, etc. However, as far as I'm aware, there's nothing in the NEC that says it's against code. In fact, the NEC specifically says it's not against code: page 543, 300.4 (text under diagram): "Signal and alarm wiring is run through the same stud holes as the NM cables. The NEC does not prohibit use of more than one cable through a single hole." Further, here's an illustration from Mike Holt: http://www.mikeholt.com/onlinetraining/page_images/1008708852_2.gif

Well, 300.4 is nowhere near page 543, and has nothing to do with how many wires or types through the same stud hole. 300.4 is for "Protection against physical damage". There is no diagram either, and Mike Holt's gif shows two NM cables thru one stud hole, and is for metal framing members, not wood studs.

edit - I looked at the gif again, and it doesn't say what the second cable is, but the two articles cited are both for physical protection. You need to look at 800.133.

 

[SparkyJJO]

Realistically you'll be just fine and they don't interfere with each other. Twisted pair and electrical can be run right next to each other with zero problem (there's a reason it's twisted). Same with speaker cables.

I however don't like running low-level interconnect near power.

No. Run cat5 next to a 120VAC line for a while and you'll have connection issues. My brother did and couldn't connect above 10 Mb, and that was even unreliable. Moved the cat5 line away from the 120V line and it went up to 100 Mb no problem.

 

[PsiStar]

Regardless whether is against code or not muchless any diagram that is less than clear, why not separate the wires from power? Even why not separate each type by several inches? It will be neater, there is far less chance of noise coupling from one set of signals to the other (dependent on the actual cable construction, length of run, & how tight the cables are bundled), AND there is probably something in the NEC that applies not it makes any difference to you since you are doing it yourself & not getting an inspection, BUT most importantly your systems are more likely to work better ... which is probably why you ask??

 

[Doppel]

I am actually getting it inspected, PsiStar. Had someone else do the main runs but I think I can muster the competency to run the speaker wires and ethernet, which is why I'm doing that before the certified electrician comes to level his judgement

 

[Greenman]

First, no, I wouldn't do this, at least with anything related to a sound system, speaker wires, etc. However, as far as I'm aware, there's nothing in the NEC that says it's against code. In fact, the NEC specifically says it's not against code: page 543, 300.4 (text under diagram): "Signal and alarm wiring is run through the same stud holes as the NM cables. The NEC does not prohibit use of more than one cable through a single hole." Further, here's an illustration from Mike Holt: http://www.mikeholt.com/onlinetraining/page_images/1008708852_2.gif

In fact, as far as I can tell (I was researching this the other day), there's no minimum distance required in residential for water lines & NM-B. (I'm running water and electric out to my garage & the lines will have to run parallel to each other, about 4 inches apart, for 6 feet.)

Incidentally, I'm putting in a 100Amp breaker panel in the garage. The garage is attached to the house. Does anyone know if I'm required to run a separate ground to a grounding rod? Or is connecting it to the ground on the main breaker panel sufficient?

You can ground to the main breaker panel. Be sure the neutral buss in the new subpanel isn't bonded, the ground/neutral bond should only occur at the main.

 

[Howard]

:biggrin: @ unbalanced home audio.

EMI usually isn't a big deal in most homes.

 

[So]

Not true. Especially with speaker wire.

Parallel runs should be at least 3' apart. You can cross directly if you have to. All the low voltage stuff can run parallel to each other but never mix your romex with your data/AV stuff.

Twisted pair should be okay-ish from a signal perspective. The combination of the twist and a digital signal will probably prevent sever signal issues. The speaker wire though, that will act as an antenna and pick up a low volume 60Hz buzz on your speakers.

I can't speak to the issue of code compliance though.

 

[Rubycon]

EMI usually isn't a big deal in most homes.

Regardless if there is a lot of EMI or not runs more than 2 meters benefit greatly by going to balanced lines. Most decent "high end", non pro gear will have balanced ins/outs for this reason.

One can cheat by using a balun, however. If the transceivers are close to the unbalanced connections and kept away from EMI/RF sources it should be quite decent.

 

[Tsaico]

The speaker wire is the only one I see as having problems. I did a similar setup, and teh speakers would always have a feedback problem. It wasn't until I had replaced the wiring that it went away. Only then did I realized it was too close.

As for the network and coax, I usually to the electric coming down one panel, and the data running on the other sides the panel I am talkinga bout are the wood studs, so maybe 16" apart.