Can China defeat the USA in war? Do you fear the Chinese?

[Victorian Gray]

There were 2 phalanx incidents since 1980, the ships were too close during the exercises which is not normal, and had more to do with the accidents than the gun system. Based on the normal distance for a battle group your claim quoted below is pure BS.



Then again 99.9999% of your posts in here are designed to get a rise out of others. We get it, you live a boring life and need to troll for attention.

You apparently have no sense of humour.

 

[blankslate]

Well the thing is Russia, the U.S. and China have problems with Terrorism.... it'd make more sense to co-operate on that issue where possible than to fight one another.


....

 

[Svnla]

The Chinese need resources like water and raw materials for the next century. They will also need more food for a growing population. The fix is either land reclaimed from the sea or expansion for more farmland.. like how the Roman Empire expanded down south and used the North of Africa as their farms. So it may very well be that the rice growing countries of Vietnam, Laos, Thailand and Philippines are very feasible for long term expansion.

Does it want war? Probably not but it wouldn't mind flexing it's muscle like this is their part of the world and they can do what they want.. just like Russia in Ukraine.

Eastern Ukraine and Crimea = substantial Russians living there.

Countries in SE Asia you mentioned above = no substantial chinese living there.

Apple and orange.

 

[Jhhnn]

The Chinese need resources like water and raw materials for the next century. They will also need more food for a growing population. The fix is either land reclaimed from the sea or expansion for more farmland.. like how the Roman Empire expanded down south and used the North of Africa as their farms. So it may very well be that the rice growing countries of Vietnam, Laos, Thailand and Philippines are very feasible for long term expansion.

Does it want war? Probably not but it wouldn't mind flexing it's muscle like this is their part of the world and they can do what they want.. just like Russia in Ukraine.

Please. china's population growth is among the lowest & trending lower.

Three Gorges dam is among the engineering achievements of the ages, providing flood control, irrigation water & nearly 100 TWh of electricity. They have a lot of other ambitious plans, as well, like fracking for natural gas. Their total energy production is second only to the US.

Their current model of resource acquisition is value added trade, same as Japan. Their efforts at market penetration are enormous, worldwide.

They will, of course, attempt to utilize any resources they can successfully claim, starting with their own. The Spratlys are essentially low hanging fruit. None of their rivals can even begin to match the effort they'll put forth to do so. They don't need to start shooting to accomplish that, so they probably won't unless somebody like the Vietnamese are willing to sacrifice human lives in defiance. They can't win. The best that anybody but the Chinese can hope to get out of it is a small piece of the bounty through co-development agreement.

There's no way the US will stick their nose in it, and there's no way that the Chinese will provoke direct American involvement anywhere we have legit interests.

Might makes right? Ask TR. He took the isthmus, remember? Ask James K Polk, who took Texas, California & everything in between from Mexico.

 

[MovingTarget]

Eastern Ukraine and Crimea = substantial Russians living there.

Countries in SE Asia you mentioned above = no substantial chinese living there.

Apple and orange.

Perhaps, but with enough resolve, that could change. Stalin moved a lot of native Russians around within the USSR and into other soviet states, to strengthen his sphere of influence over areas such as Ukraine. The same kind of thing has happened within modern China, as many ethnic Han chinese have been moved into the Tibet region, to strengthen the claim over that territory. China could easily expand its territory, so long as it does so slowly. All it takes is resolve and time.

 

[Svnla]

Perhaps, but with enough resolve, that could change. Stalin moved a lot of native Russians around within the USSR and into other soviet states, to strengthen his sphere of influence over areas such as Ukraine. The same kind of thing has happened within modern China, as many ethnic Han chinese have been moved into the Tibet region, to strengthen the claim over that territory. China could easily expand its territory, so long as it does so slowly. All it takes is resolve and time.

Tibet is under china's rule since 1950's while other countries are still independents. Hard to move massive number of chinese to those independence countries (now or ever unless china invades and takes the whole country as it did with Tibet). Or those chinese could sneak in ILLEGALLY in massive numbers and cry "racist/xenophobic/<insert more excuses>" as the ILLEGALS are doing in US.

Last time china tried to invade, it was pwned hard.

Most observers doubted that China would risk another war with Vietnam in the near future. Gerald Segal, in his 1985 book Defending China, concluded that China's 1979 war against Vietnam was a complete failure: "China failed to force a Vietnamese withdrawal from [Cambodia], failed to end border clashes, failed to cast doubt on the strength of the Soviet power, failed to dispel the image of China as a paper tiger, and failed to draw the United States into an anti-Soviet coalition."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/prc-vietnam.htm

http://content.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1879849_1846233,00.html



Same for your statement about Stalin. He was able to move Russians to other areas because they were a part of the Soviet Union.

 

[Darwin333]

You're missing the point. How would those 5,000 "underwater rovers" know where the fleet is and how would they track and home in on it? Sonar? That would give their position away. The ballistic ASMs have similar limitations. How are they going to track and home in on the fleet? They can really only go to pre programmed GPS coordinates. They take a half an hour to get where they're going, by the time they get to their spot the fleet is fifteen miles away.

I assume they would use the satellites they have recently launched and radar. I know radar has a limited range but they sure as hell are building entirely new islands that, I assume, vastly increases the radars range. I honestly don't know the technical requirements of the rest but I do know that its vastly easier to deny someone access off your own shores than it is to gain access halfway across the world. They could just straight mine the fuck out of the waters and make us try and counter.

1/3 of the world's shipping goes through the South China Sea, so it's pretty damn important. I don't entirely disagree with you on the 'just stay out of it' suggestion, but that's not the current reality. We have friends in the area (South Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan, etc.) and we are the world's only global power.

Sounds like it's pretty important to not turn into a warzone as well. Fortunately for China they don't seem to give a fuck if their people are starving or don't have the shit they need.

First of all, don't say "The fucking French" like they're a bunch of Sperglords. The French have long military tradition and are superb fighters. They don't traditionally have a great Navy, and they're certainly weaker than they used to be, but their armed forces are far superior to China's.

Second of all, diesel electric subs are only "uber quiet" when they're using their batteries. To maneuver against at CVBG, they would need to use the diesel engine, which is far noisier than the nuclear propulsion systems that our subs and carriers use. They could sit in one place and hope the fleet comes to them, but I guarantee you that as someone else pointed out, our subs would be using active SONAR to clear the CVBG's path. You cannot hide from active SONAR, the subs would be detected.

Bah, fuck the French with a chainsaw, sideways. I'm not ready to go all freedom fries or any shit like that but when I visited and those that visit here (which is more than I prefer) they were/are fucking pricks so fuck em.

As far as their Naval, or specifically submarine, abilities I fully expect their periscope mast to have a white flag on it and they still managed to sink a US aircraft carrier in simulated wargames. They do have some really nice surplus military rifles for dirt cheap, never fired and only dropped twice. If these "traditionally superb fighters that don't have a very good navy" can sink a US aircraft carrier don't you think its a bit naive to think that China can't match the fucking French navy? Should we really fear conflict with the French navy more than the Chinese navy in some theoretical situation? I honestly didn't even know the French had a navy that could reach our shores to play in wargames much less be able to sink a US aircraft carrier.

 

[OverVolt]

Even asking the questions is dumb. We are economically tied at the hip. They need us to take on debt and run a trade deficit just as much as we need all their cheap shit.

 

[Jhhnn]

Even asking the questions is dumb. We are economically tied at the hip. They need us to take on debt and run a trade deficit just as much as we need all their cheap shit.

When I was a child, back in the 50's & early 60's, Japanese goods were poorly made. By the 70's, they had embraced quality with a vengeance. China follows the same path at 10X the scale. It's the best way to maximize profit from expensive raw materials, imported or domestic.

 

[1prophet]

When I was a child, back in the 50's & early 60's, Japanese goods were poorly made. By the 70's, they had embraced quality with a vengeance. China follows the same path at 10X the scale. It's the best way to maximize profit from expensive raw materials, imported or domestic.

If you only care about making money, OSHA, EPA,Labor rights,etc. all be damned.

 

[Blackjack200]

Bah, fuck the French with a chainsaw, sideways. I'm not ready to go all freedom fries or any shit like that but when I visited and those that visit here (which is more than I prefer) they were/are fucking pricks so fuck em.

As far as their Naval, or specifically submarine, abilities I fully expect their periscope mast to have a white flag on it and they still managed to sink a US aircraft carrier in simulated wargames. They do have some really nice surplus military rifles for dirt cheap, never fired and only dropped twice. If these "traditionally superb fighters that don't have a very good navy" can sink a US aircraft carrier don't you think its a bit naive to think that China can't match the fucking French navy? Should we really fear conflict with the French navy more than the Chinese navy in some theoretical situation? I honestly didn't even know the French had a navy that could reach our shores to play in wargames much less be able to sink a US aircraft carrier.

The shores of Normandy on the 71st anniversary of D-Day.

 

[TheSlamma]

No I don't fear them. After putting up with most of the stuff we have to buy these days being made over there I truly firmly believe they would suffer too many breakdowns in equipment. Any object that has bearings in it would go bad within 3 months.

Nothing made in China lasts or works well. NOTHING. I don't see their military equipment being exempt from this.

 

[Mai72]

War is very unpredictable. Just because a country has the technology, it doesn't mean that it's a guaranteed victory. Many things can come into play. Things that we can't even foresee.

History is always a good indication on what can happen. Take the British for example. They should have whoomped on the colonist. At that time they had the technology. They had the ships. They had trained soldiers. They had the supplies. Yet, thru determination, luck and willpower they got defeated by a group of ragged colonist. I wonder if the British were having the same conversation that we're currently having in their pubs? I'm sure they thought that they were invincible. That the colonist were inferior.

Anyway, I don't see an American/Chinese war for a long time. I still think it's bound to happen, but then I will be an old man. Maybe even dead. Let the youngens deal with the madness.

 

[xaeniac]

China is our biggest enemy.... Actually I don't see why we do business with them....

 

[Mai72]

China is our biggest enemy.... Actually I don't see why we do business with them....

It's because big business only cares about short term profits. They don't care or see the big picture. Just heard the other day that shareholders were dismayed that Walmart wasn't able to meet quarterly projections on growth, because the company raised the minimum starting wage to $9 an hour.

Shareholders only care about one thing. Profit! They don't care where it comes from and if it will make America weaker in the future. They only care about now.

 

[Darwin333]

The shores of Normandy on the 71st anniversary of D-Day.

Thank you for proving my point. Iirc the French resistance did helps us out by fucking up the railways that the Germans were using for supply lines so kudos to them for that.

 

[Darwin333]

It's because big business only cares about short term profits. They don't care or see the big picture. Just heard the other day that shareholders were dismayed that Walmart wasn't able to meet quarterly projections on growth, because the company raised the minimum starting wage to $9 an hour.

Shareholders only care about one thing. Profit! They don't care where it comes from and if it will make America weaker in the future. They only care about now.

Not just shareholders, politicians too. OTOH the Chinese are very long term planners.

 

[Ns1]

Nothing made in China lasts or works well. NOTHING. I don't see their military equipment being exempt from this.

billions of tech devices disagrees with you.

 

[TheSlamma]

billions of tech devices disagrees with you.

How old is your current cell phone? Now be honest, don't lie to try to make a point.

 

[Ns1]

How old is your current cell phone? Now be honest, don't lie to try to make a point.

iPhone5; what's your point? It works well.

 

[Jhhnn]

It's because big business only cares about short term profits. They don't care or see the big picture. Just heard the other day that shareholders were dismayed that Walmart wasn't able to meet quarterly projections on growth, because the company raised the minimum starting wage to $9 an hour.

Shareholders only care about one thing. Profit! They don't care where it comes from and if it will make America weaker in the future. They only care about now.

Where we've gone wrong is in not thinking it all the way through, believing in the notion that trickle down actually works. It demonstrably does not.

What the middle class got from our capitalists prior to such notions was a bigger share of the pie through a variety of mechanisms, unions & tariffs among them along with regulations that created job redundancy. We also demanded that they pay a higher % of their incomes in taxes. When those mechanisms were discarded/ crippled in favor of global corporatism, all we got out of the deal was cheaper imported goods, fewer jobs & bigger lines of credit. It's becoming apparent that's not enough compensation for what we've lost.

Profits are their problem. The determination of proper distribution of after tax income is rightfully in the realm of the people, not just the uber wealthy. If they won't create the jobs & pay the wages we determine to be adequate, we have the right to accomplish that with taxes & redistribution.

 

[TheSlamma]

iPhone5; what's your point? It works well.

When put up against the USA made Moto X it got beat bad in all durability tests. Just like their tools, appliances, formaldehyde drywall and lead lined toys it's all junk.

 

[Ns1]

When put up against the USA made Moto X it got beat bad in all durability tests. Just like their tools, appliances, formaldehyde drywall and lead lined toys it's all junk.

lol. sure thing buddy.

 

[Jhhnn]

When put up against the USA made Moto X it got beat bad in all durability tests. Just like their tools, appliances, formaldehyde drywall and lead lined toys it's all junk.

Whistlin' past the graveyard, huh?

 

[norseamd]

Well this is actually a very complex issue and it might actually be that neither side can win any potential war.