Can Audigy 2 ZS send EAX surround out any digital outputs?

[apriest]

I don?t see a forum for sound issues, so I?ll post it under General Hardware.

I have any Audigy 2 Platinum. It?s great when using Creative?s 6.1 speakers. It?s not so great when trying to use it in an HTPC and hook it up to your home theater. What?s driving me nuts is that the sound card can?t send any of its sound out the digital outputs (optical or coax). It can do a ?pass through? of Dolby Digital or DTS sound off a DVD, but then it?s not doing any decoding. What this means is that all of the EAX surround from a game can only go out the 5.1/6.1 analog outputs, and not out any of the digital ones. I wound up upgrading my home theater amp to one that had 5.1 analog inputs. It works OK. Often the channels will get screwed up. Right will come out the center, center will come out the left, left will come out the sub or very faintly in the rears, the rears usually work perfectly fine. Sometimes switching from 5.1 to 6.1 and back will fix it, sometimes rebooting or upgrading drivers breaks it again, it?s all kinda random.

If someone could tell me for SURE that the new Audigy 2 ZS models can send EAX and other WAV sounds out the digital outputs (and not just a pass through) I would upgrade in a heartbeat! I can?t find this information in any review or in any of Creative Labs marketing material though. Also, would it be possible to get just the ZS card by itself and use my existing Platinum Live Drive to save some money? ;-) Anyone out there in the community know?

Thanks!
Aaron

 

[Stealth1024]

This is interesting since I have a friend who uses only the digital out from his Live Platinum 5.1 (non audigy) as an input for a home theater system and it appears to work fine...

I also have the same card, although I'm not using the digital out on it..

I would be very interested if anyone found a good review of the newest ZS cards though.

Perhaps an email to creative would solve the issue?

 

[ViRGE]

The Audigy line can send out 2-channel PCM(aka WAVE sound) via digital(make sure digital output only is on), but not multi-channel sound. For that, you're going to need something featuring DICE, and that's an nForce.

 

[apriest]

Originally posted by: ViRGE
The Audigy line can send out 2-channel PCM(aka WAVE sound) via digital(make sure digital output only is on), but not multi-channel sound. For that, you're going to need something featuring DICE, and that's an nForce.

That is correct ViRGE, thanks for clarifying! ;-)

 

[Boogak]

Originally posted by: ViRGE
The Audigy line can send out 2-channel PCM(aka WAVE sound) via digital(make sure digital output only is on), but not multi-channel sound. For that, you're going to need something featuring DICE, and that's an nForce.

I'm a little confused by your post, are you saying you can only get sound from your digital output line when playing DVDs? That shouldn't be the case, even my original non 5.1 Soundblaster Live could output a PCM stereo signal thru the digital out line into my receiver.

If you're saying you don't get 5.1 sound thru your digital output line except when playing DVDs, that's because none of Creative's soundcards can create a true Dolby Digital 5.1 signal on the fly, so you'll only get PCM stereo thru the digital output line.

If you want true Dolby Digital 5.1 signal from your soundcard at all times, you'll have to upgrade to a nForce or nForce2 board that supports Dolby Digital encoding. I have a Asus A7N-266VM in my HTPC hooked up to a Denon receiver and the sound rocks.

 

[Stealth1024]

Audigy 2 ZS External I/O Hub Front and Rear Panel Connectors Headphone Out (1/4" Stereo Jack)
Line In 1 (1/4" Stereo Jack , shared with Microphone In with Gain Control)
Line In 2 (1/4" Stereo Jack)
Line In 3 (2x RCA Jack)
Optical SPDIF In/Out
Coaxial SPDIF In/Out
Digital Out for 5.1 support (6-channel SPDIF Output to Creative digital speakers)
2x FireWire® (IEEE® 1394) ports
MIDI In / Out
Infra-red Receiver
AD_LINK 1 and AD_LINK 2 connectors


from http://www.americas.creative.com/products/product.asp?product=1273&category=461&maincategory=461&nav=spec

 

[apriest]

Just to clarify, yes, I can get PCM (two channel only) out the digital outputs. But I don't get multi channel (such as EAX support in games). So you are correct, the Audigy 2 that I have cannot encode EAX into a Dolby Digital signal on the fly like the nForce chipset can. From what Stealth1024 posted, it would appear that the Audigy 2 ZS CAN do this: "Digital Out for 5.1 support (6-channel SPDIF Output to Creative digital speakers)". I'm wondering if anyone has TRIED and does it work, or is it marketing fluff (or outright lies). I've put so much money into this blasted machine between ATI hardware and Creative Labs hardware and amps that I'm getting weary of trying another part. :-(

 

[Pariah]

There is no official standard for sending unencoded multichannel audio through a digital connection. For this reason, Creative has had a proprietary solution that works with their speakers. You cannot get more than stereo through digital to anything else besides specific Creative speakers that support it.

 

[Stealth1024]

The obvious question to ask here then is what format do DVD players use to send digital audio? Obviously something at the other end has to decode it into n channels.

 

[Pariah]

They send it as a DD encoded stream, just like a PC using SPDIF out.

 

[Nebor]

And digital sound won't allow you to listen to 24 bit DVD audio.... to hell with digital sound I say, what advantages does it offer?

 

[DaveSimmons]

nVidia is supposed to be offering soundcards soon that do encode game audio to 5.1 dolby for the digital out, just like on their motherboards, so perhaps Creative will finally get off their lazy butts and add this feature to their own cards, years later than they should have.

Yes, 6 analog channels are uncompressed, so "better" than one compressed digital 5.1 signal, but one digital cable is more convenient for many of us, and some older home theater receivers (like my Pioneer) did not include the 5.1 analog ins.

 

[Auric]

Yeah, that's the standard line trotted out by Creative: analog are better 'cause uncompressed. Now really, games don't have or require anything better than DD or DTS quality. They understandably just wanna keep milking that old EMU chip and hocking their nasty peripherals. It's not really an issue if your amp is right next to the PC but if it ain't, who wants to run a mess of analog cables when one coax would do? It will be funny if NVIDIA makes them change their tune. But then, NVIDIA has to prove that they can do it properly. The SoundStorm was awful on-board, but without the space and same cost restrictions they should be able to do better.

 

[apriest]

I was thinking it would be easier to send a 7.1 DTS-ES or THX-EX (or whatever format it?s in) signal over fiber or coax than it would to purchase a new amp with a 7.1 input. Even if the new Audigy 2 ZS can do 5.1 out the digital ports (which would be AWESOME), it still can?t do 7.1. I?d have to purchase a new amp with 7.1 analog inputs or upscale from 5.1 to 7.1 with my amp (which can do 7.1 DTS-ES and Dolby Digital EX). I?m not about to purchase another new amp. I?d be happy enough if I could get EAX games to work in Dolby Digital out the digital ports. The small difference in rear surround won?t be that noticeable.

 

[beatle]

Originally posted by: apriest
I was thinking it would be easier to send a 7.1 DTS-ES or THX-EX (or whatever format it?s in) signal over fiber or coax than it would to purchase a new amp with a 7.1 input. Even if the new Audigy 2 ZS can do 5.1 out the digital ports (which would be AWESOME), it still can?t do 7.1. I?d have to purchase a new amp with 7.1 analog inputs or upscale from 5.1 to 7.1 with my amp (which can do 7.1 DTS-ES and Dolby Digital EX). I?m not about to purchase another new amp. I?d be happy enough if I could get EAX games to work in Dolby Digital out the digital ports. The small difference in rear surround won?t be that noticeable.

The Audigy 2 can't even do a digital 5.1 output of anything other than a DVD since the card only acts as a passthrough. 7.1 would be even further off. Like others have said, if you really want your EAX output from a digital port, you'll need Soundstorm.

 

[Stealth1024]

"Compressed" Why would the digital signal be compressed if that same digital signal is the one being read off of the CD? Now granted I know DVD audio is already slightly compressed from the true analog format, however consider this:

your home theater system that you paid many thousand for probably has much better DAC's than a creative card anyway...

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by: apriest
I was thinking it would be easier to send a 7.1 DTS-ES or THX-EX (or whatever format it?s in) signal over fiber or coax than it would to purchase a new amp with a 7.1 input. Even if the new Audigy 2 ZS can do 5.1 out the digital ports (which would be AWESOME), it still can?t do 7.1. I?d have to purchase a new amp with 7.1 analog inputs or upscale from 5.1 to 7.1 with my amp (which can do 7.1 DTS-ES and Dolby Digital EX). I?m not about to purchase another new amp. I?d be happy enough if I could get EAX games to work in Dolby Digital out the digital ports. The small difference in rear surround won?t be that noticeable.

DTS-ES is only 6.1, and THX isn't an audio format, just a certification. There are no 7.1 games, and I don't believe there are even any 5.1 games available yet either. Rumour had it, that Doom3 would support 5.1 audio. No hardware supports 7.1 digital gaming in any form, including the NForce. PC soundcards are designed primarily to be used with PC speakers. There is no 5.1+ PC speaker system that I am aware of that doesn't support 5.1+ analog-in, while very few support digital. Creative caters to the mass market, which seems smart to me.

The Audigy 2 can't even do a digital 5.1 output of anything other than a DVD since the card only acts as a passthrough.

Yes, it can if you use Creative's speakers. Otherwise, Creative cards have always supported 4 channel digital out, but it was worthless as I'm not aware of any audio equipment that support simultaneous dual SPDIF in.

Like others have said, if you really want your EAX output from a digital port, you'll need Soundstorm.

Soundstorm doesn't support EAX HD, so it isn't exactly the ideal solution either.

"Compressed" Why would the digital signal be compressed if that same digital signal is the one being read off of the CD?

Because that's what DolbyDigital is. It's a compression scheme. Game audio is not just read of the CD, it is interactive and generated on the fly. Othewise the audio wouldn't need to be encoded on the fly, it could just be stored that way on the game CD.

your home theater system that you paid many thousand for probably has much better DAC's than a creative card anyway...

The Audigy 2/ZS use DAC's that exceed anything you'll find in even midrange audio equipment. Very few people spends thousands on a receiver or amp/preamp setup anyway. If you're that picky about you audio, you're not using a gaming card as your main listening device.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Originally posted by: Stealth1024
"Compressed" Why would the digital signal be compressed if that same digital signal is the one being read off of the CD? Now granted I know DVD audio is already slightly compressed from the true analog format, however consider this:

your home theater system that you paid many thousand for probably has much better DAC's than a creative card anyway...

Compressed because game 3D audio is 5.1 not 2.0. CD audio is uncompressed 2.0, i.e. stereo. DVD audio is compressed 6-channel, the same compression as MP3s. But for gunshots and explosions lossy compression is more than good enough, just like for movie audio.

The problem is that Creative cards (including the new $100+ 2 ZS) pass through pre-encoded CD and DVD-audio as-is but the cards are too brain-dead to take 6-channel game audio and compress it to a DVD-like signal (dolby / dts) in real time.

 

[Accord99]

Originally posted by: beatle
The Audigy 2 can't even do a digital 5.1 output of anything other than a DVD since the card only acts as a passthrough. 7.1 would be even further off. Like others have said, if you really want your EAX output from a digital port, you'll need Soundstorm.

The Audigy 2 does have uncompressed digital 5.1 output using a triple-spdif over one cable implementation. The problem is that there is no standard for 5.1 digital uncompressed input.

Originally posted by: Stealth1024
"Compressed" Why would the digital signal be compressed if that same digital signal is the one being read off of the CD? Now granted I know DVD audio is already slightly compressed from the true analog format, however consider this:

Because you're compressing digital audio that can be up to 192 KiloBytes/sec per stereo stream into Dolby Digital, an inherently lossy compression scheme, with a cheap real-time encoder, down to at best 640 Kilobits/sec for 5.1 channels, if you use SoundStorm.

your home theater system that you paid many thousand for probably has much better DAC's than a creative card anyway...

The Audigy 2 uses the Crystal CS4382 DAC, which is of very high quality and easily comparable to receivers under $1000 in price. Of course, at this level of quality, the DACs are far from being an important factor in overall sound quality.

 

[beatle]

Originally posted by: Accord99

Originally posted by: beatle
The Audigy 2 can't even do a digital 5.1 output of anything other than a DVD since the card only acts as a passthrough. 7.1 would be even further off. Like others have said, if you really want your EAX output from a digital port, you'll need Soundstorm.

The Audigy 2 does have uncompressed digital 5.1 output using a triple-spdif over one cable implementation. The problem is that there is no standard for 5.1 digital uncompressed input.

I meant to a real set of speakers, not proprietary Creative stuff.

 

[Pariah]

Because you're compressing digital audio that can be up to 192 KiloBytes/sec per stereo stream into Dolby Digital, an inherently lossy compression scheme, with a cheap real-time encoder, down to at best 640 Kilobits/sec for 5.1 channels, if you use SoundStorm.

DVD-A is sampled at up to 192KHz @ 24bit. That translates into 576KB/s per channel or about 3.5MB/s for 5.1. By comparison, an audio CD has a bitrate of 88KB/s per channel.

 

[apriest]

Well, nice audio discussion going on here! While we are at it, check out the DTC-9.4 and DTA-9.4 separates at http://www.integrahometheater.com. Of course, Denon makes some nice stuff too. Check out their AVR-1083 receiver and DVD-9000 player. They've found a way to send 6-channel, 96kHz/24-bit or stereo 192kHz/24-bit DVD Audio signals DIGITALLY to their receiver via a CAT5 cable. That's some high end audio.

I have a JVC RX-9010VBK http://www.jvc.com/product.jsp?modelId=MODL026195&page=2 No where near as high end as the above paragraph. I wish the Audigy 2 Platinum had better analog outputs than the mini-jacks. It's hard to run good cable (like Monster Cable or custom built) from the computer to the amp when you have to step down to a jack that small, especially when they are so closely spaced. And with analog sound and so many cables back there, you can hear it if you have crappy cables. Digital wouldn't be a problem. Honestly, when my setup works correctly, it's AWESOME! The amp does a great job of stepping the analog 5.1 up to DTS-ES 7.1 and UT2003 rocks with EAX. I've got some good cables (Monster Cable and custom built ones) running between everything back there though. I'm going to have a matrixed 11.2 surround field once I move. 4 front speakers, 1 front center, 4 side speakers, 2 rear speakers, 1 LFE sub, and an extra sub dedicated to rear and side sounds only. It will be 7.1 discrete of course, but matrixed out to 11.2 speakers using several amps. Dunno how good it will sound until I move and have the space to set it up. ;-)

Soooo, all this awesome discussion, and still no one knows for SURE, from experience, that the Audigy 2 ZS can encode an EAX surround field into a DD 5.1 stream and send it out the digital outputs. Even if it can, it probably won't be able to for DVD Audio due to licensing restrictions! Hehehehehe!

 

[Accord99]

apriest, no Creative sound card features DD encoding. And DVD-Audio cannot be pass through digital unles you're using proprietary digital methods found on flagship Meridian and Denon products. An encrpyted Firewire connection may be used in the future but that would require completely new receivers and DVD-Audio players. Though, since the Audigy series of cards do have built-in Firewire, it may be possible for Creative to so once such a digital standard becomes commonplace.

 

[DaveSimmons]

> Soooo, all this awesome discussion, and still no one knows for SURE, from experience, that the Audigy 2 ZS can encode an EAX surround field into a DD 5.1 stream and send it out the digital outputs

You have it backwards. Like Accord99 says, we all know, for sure, that the 2 ZS does not do real-time dolby / dts encoding, it can only passthrough a pre-encoded stream from a movie.

id might be bypassing the card to do their own software real-time encoding, then passing it to the card to send out like DVD player software does for pre-encoded movie audio. Creative does not do anything similar for game audio. What Creative cards can do is send a nonstandard multichannel digital signal out to their own speakers, but this format is completely incompatible with a home theater receiver.

 

[apriest]

Okie dokie! It's not worth upgrading in my opinion from the Audigy 2 to the new ZS then. At least I don't think there would be much of an appreciable difference for my application. Unless of course, the buggy problem I have with sound going out the wrong output gets resolved. Usually I can fix it every time it happens though and I rarely upgrade drivers or reboot the computer, which is what causes it. ;-)