Can a float-switched submersible pump drain water down to ~1/2 inch?

[Muse]

The puddle that forms when it rains a lot is right next to my house. I don't want it sit there long because it will contribute to humidity in the house and exacerbate the problem of the house sinking into mud.

I have done this for a few years with Ace 1/6 HP and now an Ace 1/4 HP submersible pump, switchless. The rain was so intense the other day I had the 1/4 HP pump on for 15 hours continuously (atmospheric river that stalled over the area)! I had to monitor the situation because running dry will probably burn out the pump in short order.

I had an Ace 1/6 HP submersible pump in reserve but testing it I discovered that it was defective. I disassembled it, found it had a cheapo cardboard gasket which had gotten wet and broken and a whole lot of oil ran out and I figured the pump was for the trash can. So, I was stuck with using that one 1/4 HP pump.

Now, down to one working pump, I figure I need at least one more, for backup at the least. Or double duty when there's a big rain storm.

I have been looking at offerings and, of course, there's a lot to choose from. I figure stay away from those Ace Hardware pumps, given that I've bought at least 4 and have only one working now (the 1/4 HP, the others were all 1/6 HP).

Firstly, I'm wondering if a submersible pump with a float switch (vertical or otherwise) can work for this. Will one of these drain the puddle down to, say, 1/2" and then cut out? Or am I better off monitoring a NOT-automatic pump? What I'm doing is plugging the extension cord from the pump into an energy monitoring KASA smart plug. Via wifi (smartphone) I can see the current draw of the pump and when it gets below about 185 watts, I know the puddle's pretty drained and I can turn off the current from my smartphone. This is lightyears better than what I did for a few years, but an automatic shutoff sump pump would be even more convenient depending on how efficient it is, i.e. not leaving 2" of water in the puddle, and be reliable in shutoff so I don't have to buy a new pump.

Thanks for tips!

 

[pcgeek11]

I know this wasn't what you asked for but it seems to me you should install a french drain system to get the moisture away from your house. A much better actual solution rather than the band-aid you are currently using.

I'm sure @Greenman may have a better idea than myself. Such as getting the grade corrected around your house.

How to Install a French Drain

Installing a French drain will help prevent flooding and pooling in your yard. Learn how to install a French drain to direct runoff water out of your yard.

www.homedepot.com

French Drains: How they Work, and How to Install Them

Get water in your basement after it rains? Here’s a solution that might help dry things up.

www.bobvila.com

 

[Muse]

I know this wasn't what you asked for but it seems to me you should install a french drain system to get the moisture away from your house. A much better actual solution rather than the band-aid you are currently using.

I'm sure @Greenman may have a better idea than myself. Such as getting the grade corrected around your house.

How to Install a French Drain

Installing a French drain will help prevent flooding and pooling in your yard. Learn how to install a French drain to direct runoff water out of your yard.

www.homedepot.com

French Drains: How they Work, and How to Install Them

Get water in your basement after it rains? Here’s a solution that might help dry things up.

www.bobvila.com

Putting a French Drain around my house seems to me daunting. Concrete around almost 1/2 of it, then there's the front porch around the front. Only maybe 30% looks accessible. I have to get some experts over here again to assess the situation.

 

[deadlyapp]

French drain is definitely the solution, but it really depends on how long you intend to be in the house / will the house outlive you; as well as how often you expect this to occur.

Since you probably get rain of this level maybe 1-2 days a year, it may not make sense. In Houston, where I'm regularly inundated, I installed french drains and a submersible pump in a sunken pit.

That may be an option for you. You could install just a small local french drain that dumped into a sunken pit, and put your submersible pump with an automatic float inside the pit.

Alternatively, use your Kasa plug with something like IFTTT and you could even get a leak sensor to determine when there is water and then turn off when current gets below 185w.

 

[Muse]

French drain is definitely the solution, but it really depends on how long you intend to be in the house / will the house outlive you; as well as how often you expect this to occur.

Since you probably get rain of this level maybe 1-2 days a year, it may not make sense. In Houston, where I'm regularly inundated, I installed french drains and a submersible pump in a sunken pit.

That may be an option for you. You could install just a small local french drain that dumped into a sunken pit, and put your submersible pump with an automatic float inside the pit.

Alternatively, use your Kasa plug with something like IFTTT and you could even get a leak sensor to determine when there is water and then turn off when current gets below 185w.

Ah, thank you! I had not heard of IFTTT. I was thinking the last day or two about this. I was wondering if, basically, I can somehow get the power to the pump to turn off (as you suggest) when the draw is at or below 185 watts. The KASA app does not support that, at least not to my knowledge. It would obviously be useful for a lot of people and I suppose not terribly difficult for them to implement, but maybe not as easy as I imagine. There may be gotchas there. Anyway, IFTTT might accomplish the same thing somehow. Don't know how I might proceed to look for an IFTTT solution to it. However, what I'm doing is not terrible, it's just nowhere near as convenient as automatic shutoff of the pump when it's drawing less than 185watts. Yesterday I wondered if there is a different smart plug which DOES support something like that. I imagine that > is more likely supported than <, but there may be a smart plug that supports both.

Yes, once or twice is probably average. There are years much more problematical than others and this one is shaping up to be a worst case. I ordered a pump yesterday, so in 10 days or so I should have a backup, or in a deluge type storm I can run both. We had one 6 days ago. Over the last 15-20 years I have experienced maybe 3 or 4 storms rivaling last week's.

The sunken pit thing is something I've been considering. The spot that seemed most sensible didn't work out. I had the utility company come to determine if it was OK and they said no, there's gas piping there. Another spot would be a few feet more from the house, but I think the sewer line is there. I could dig down and see exactly where that is and see if I can manage a pit next to it. I don't know if there's enough room what with the driveway concrete (there are two parallel strips of concrete for that).

I need to get some professionals over here to assess my drainage issue, and of even more importance is determining if there's something I can do to improve the earthquake readiness of the house. I was told that a complete foundation redo would cost me more than I'd get out of it upon selling the house... some 20 years ago... i.e. jacking up the house and pouring concrete, leveling the house, etc. Meantime (the last 4 years or so), I've been buying earthquake insurance, over 5k/year. I am quite unsure how that would work out in the event of a big quake, but I feel less insecure, FWIW.

 

[pcgeek11]

Putting a French Drain around my house seems to me daunting. Concrete around almost 1/2 of it, then there's the front porch around the front. Only maybe 30% looks accessible. I have to get some experts over here again to assess the situation.

I would think you only need to drain the area that is puddling.

 

[Muse]

I would think you only need to drain the area that is puddling.

Yes. I imagine something is possible that's better than what I'm doing. I will get some "estimates." Of course, in doing so, I will hear what these guys have to say. It's not like I'm in a big hurry, I've been living with this problem for 20 years or so.

 

[deadlyapp]

Ah, thank you! I had not heard of IFTTT. I was thinking the last day or two about this. I was wondering if, basically, I can somehow get the power to the pump to turn off (as you suggest) when the draw is at or below 185 watts. The KASA app does not support that, at least not to my knowledge. It would obviously be useful for a lot of people and I suppose not terribly difficult for them to implement, but maybe not as easy as I imagine. There may be gotchas there. Anyway, IFTTT might accomplish the same thing somehow. Don't know how I might proceed to look for an IFTTT solution to it. However, what I'm doing is not terrible, it's just nowhere near as convenient as automatic shutoff of the pump when it's drawing less than 185watts. Yesterday I wondered if there is a different smart plug which DOES support something like that. I imagine that > is more likely supported than <, but there may be a smart plug that supports both.

Yes, once or twice is probably average. There are years much more problematical than others and this one is shaping up to be a worst case. I ordered a pump yesterday, so in 10 days or so I should have a backup, or in a deluge type storm I can run both. We had one 6 days ago. Over the last 15-20 years I have experienced maybe 3 or 4 storms rivaling last week's.

The sunken pit thing is something I've been considering. The spot that seemed most sensible didn't work out. I had the utility company come to determine if it was OK and they said no, there's gas piping there. Another spot would be a few feet more from the house, but I think the sewer line is there. I could dig down and see exactly where that is and see if I can manage a pit next to it. I don't know if there's enough room what with the driveway concrete (there are two parallel strips of concrete for that).

I need to get some professionals over here to assess my drainage issue, and of even more importance is determining if there's something I can do to improve the earthquake readiness of the house. I was told that a complete foundation redo would cost me more than I'd get out of it upon selling the house... some 20 years ago... i.e. jacking up the house and pouring concrete, leveling the house, etc. Meantime (the last 4 years or so), I've been buying earthquake insurance, over 5k/year. I am quite unsure how that would work out in the event of a big quake, but I feel less insecure, FWIW.

I don't know specifically with IFTTT, but there's an integration with Kasa and SmartThings that allows you to control those devices. You'd need to do some digging to see if there's a way to do the same with IFTTT.

You may be able to integrate Alexa with Kasa and do a routine, triggering on the power draw.

Here's a reddit thread on a similar topic

https://www.reddit.com/r/homeautomation/comments/n97zge

 

[Muse]

My one working pump (Ace 1/4 HP) suddenly and with no obvious/apparent reason lost perhaps 75% of its power/usefulness just as another atmospheric river hit after midnight Monday. Rather stressful experience as I witnessed the water rising in the pond that formed next to the house because the pump was only extracting about 3 gallons/minute when it should have done 15 according to the specs. The power draw was below 200 watts, and I think that's low. Later in the morning I spotted my neighbor outside and asked him if he still had a pump (it was he lending me his Ace 1/6 HP a few years ago that got me onto those pumps). He said he did and he'd look to find it. He did and we attached it alongside my Ace 1/4 HP. His pumped much faster and drew close to 400 watts, so was drawing ~2x the power of mine, which should have been higher being the more powerful model.

Anyway, the pair made pretty short work of draining the pond, plus the rain had stopped. Water continued to seep up out of the ground for the remainder of the day (yesterday), so I turned on one or both of the pumps periodically.

Today, another atmospheric river is on tap, but it seems weaker than yesterdays and I'm hopeful that the rest of the week will see lighter rain than has been not uncommon the last several weeks. The last month has been super rainy here. I don't recall a more challenging winter in the last 10+ years, not even close.

A working pump should arrive in 3 days (Friday), a Superior Pump 1/3 HP submersible, Model 91330. They are relatively cheap but the reviews are really good. I actually have 3 coming, ordered one new from Home Depot, one open box (off Ebay), one used "very good" off Amazon that I think might actually be an open box. Hopefully they won't draw more power than can be handled by my Kasa K115 energy monitoring smart plugs. The Kasa plugs should handle the draw but I wonder if the power surge when I turn it on might kill the plug.

[Edit: News I saw today suggests this rainy spate rivals the major one in winter 1997-1998. I totally believe it. The major events just keep on coming. Today we had a thunderstorm here. They are rather rare, every few years we have one I actually hear/see. This was nice, the weather's actually kind of exhilarating. I'm used to it now. My neighbor having lent me his pump, I'm not so worried. I'm gonna receive 2 of my ordered pumps in 3 days].

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

I would look at digging a hole and set a catch basin with a grate top. Set the pump down inside it with an exhaust hose out to the street (or other safer place).

 

[skyking]

Those are helpful suggestions. Sent you a PM, @Muse

 

[Muse]

I would look at digging a hole and set a catch basin with a grate top. Set the pump down inside it with an exhaust hose out to the street (or other safer place).

I can maybe do this but there's a challenge with that hole. Where I was thinking of digging one to house a sump pump affair turned out to be a no-no... I contacted PG&E (gas and electric here) and they sent out somebody who posted little flags on sticks indicating that there was a gas line right there underground. If I move further away from the house from there, it's one of the two driveway strips (concrete), which are about 18" wide, then the ground between the strips. I'm pretty sure that my sewer line is under that ground-between-concrete strip. I could dig down and see if I can manage a hole that doesn't interfere with the sewer line... being careful not to break it. I had a trenchless line installed around 10 years ago there.

Meantime I survived the panic I was in a few weeks ago by borrowing a pump from my neighbor and a week later received a couple new pumps (unused open box Superior Pump 1/3 HP submersible, Model 91330 each). They came with adapters to allow using a standard garden hose. I figure to stop by my local Harbor Freight in a few days and pick up one or two 1 1/4" 24 foot hoses that should allow much faster pumping. Using remote turn on/off using Kasa K115 energy monitoring smart plugs (via wifi!) eases usage but still it's a hands-on affair compared to an automatic turn on/off system. Even so, I figure automatic is subject to exigencies... clogs, who knows?

Best would be some kind of work that eliminates the accumulation of water, that gets the water out to the street without worries. I talked to a guy who seemed to have good ideas but he didn't come through with a proposal/estimate. He was brought over by a neighbor around a year ago.

 

[skyking]

the PG@E line is probably deep enough that a short Catch Basin (CB) would sit over it with no issues.
The next question is getting power to it, and where are you pumping to? I would rather have everything underground for neatness and trip hazard.

 

[pcgeek11]

the PG@E line is probably deep enough that a short Catch Basin (CB) would sit over it with no issues.
The next question is getting power to it, and where are you pumping to? I would rather have everything underground for neatness and trip hazard.

The code says minimum of 36 inches deep.

California Code of Regulations, Title 8, Section 2830. Insulated Conductors.

(c) Direct Buried Cables. Direct buried cables or cables in flexible nonmetallic enclosures shall be installed at a depth of at least 36 inches. Lesser depths shall be permitted to be employed if the cable is armored with a minimum of No. 12 BWG steel wire closely wound or two layers of steel tape each at least 0.020 inch thick, or if the cable is protected by a layer of concrete at least 3 inches thick above the cable.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

"If I move further away from the house from there, it's one of the two driveway strips (concrete), which are about 18" wide, then the ground between the strips. I'm pretty sure that my sewer line is under that ground-between-concrete strip. I could dig down and see if I can manage a hole that doesn't interfere with the sewer line... being careful not to break it. "



Ummm, sewer lines carry waste water. That may be your most simple answer IF the community system doesn't object to tapping it.

 

[skyking]

oh they absolutely do object to dumping storm into sanitary, by principle.

 

[pcgeek11]

oh they absolutely do object to dumping storm into sanitary, by principle.

Lots of locations use the water usage to calculate the sewer bill. Dumping unaccounted for water in the sewage system would muck that calculation up.

 

[Greenman]

"If I move further away from the house from there, it's one of the two driveway strips (concrete), which are about 18" wide, then the ground between the strips. I'm pretty sure that my sewer line is under that ground-between-concrete strip. I could dig down and see if I can manage a hole that doesn't interfere with the sewer line... being careful not to break it. "



Ummm, sewer lines carry waste water. That may be your most simple answer IF the community system doesn't object to tapping it.

That works in older city's with combined storm/sanitary sewers, Berkeley isn't one of those.