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Calling out all commies, Economics for dummies

Deudalus

Golden Member
Ok this is desperately needed around here because apparently some people simply do not realize how these things work. I don't know if it is just economic ignorance or their blinders just refuse to allow them to see the facts of things, but it is a sad reality none the less.

Now before any of you get your panties in a twist and start saying "but, but, but it doesn't have to be this way" well really yes it does. The only way to avoid these simple truths is to adopt a communist policy towards the nation where everyone makes the same amount regardless of what they do.

If you wanna advocate that then go ahead, but the fact is that's not what we have right now so these are simple truths regarding what we ARE CURRENTLY working with.

So here we go, some simple truths:

1) If the rich stop getting richer the poor stop eating:

Now I know that some of you hate this but the simple fact is this. If the rich people who control the major corporations start losing money then they will simply close up shop and everyone who isn't "set for life" will suffer because of it.

Think about it, if Sam Walton were still running Wal-Mart and it was swirling down the tubes would he care? No he's rich. If he has to sell it all off, liquidate the entire corp, and get out with whatever he can he will still be sipping Crystal and smoking Cuban cigars on his yacht.

Meanwhile the poor guy who used to stock his stores to feed his family no longer has that job available. You tell me who suffers.

2) If the rich keep getting richer and richer, the poor benefit:

Now for a moment don't think buzz words like "exploitation" and "wealth distribution" and just think about facts.

Some guy got very rich off of iPods. Now the guy who came up with that idea might be getting 90% of the benefits from that idea and the legions who build those iPods might only be seeing a fraction of that benefit. But, those workers now have a stable job because simply because a guy had a great idea which got him VERY rich.

Everyone benefits, some more than others. But everyone does benefit.

3) You can't pay everyone an equal wage because not all jobs are worth equal money:

Case and point teachers. Teachers have a very noble job, in a noble workplace, belonging to a noble profession. But our best and brightest normally aren't teachers simply because of their pay. Our best and brightest are doctors, lawyers, and businessmen.

So naturally, if we paid doctors the same amount that we paid teachers then we would have that kind of quality fixing your knee, unclogging your arteries, or fixing your brain. Is that what you want? Nope.

4) Now then simple math tells us:

A worker is only worth what a worker is worth. But an entrepreneur is worth the value of his or her ideas. Some ideas are worth more than other ideas, see the Shamzami at 2 am on TV that will clean your car and water your plants for 3 easy payments versus the microprocessor, but regardless of that the worker is only worth a certain amount.

So entrepreneurs have an almost endless ability to generate wealth meanwhile the worker is only worth what the work force dictates him to be worth.


Now given these very simple truths you have 2 different ways of looking at things. One deals in reality and one deals in "it should be like this because its fair."


Realistic intelligent principles says:

A: Let the rich get richer as long as it helps the rest of the population. If Bill Gates could triple his profits and at the same time solve world hunger then that is a good thing.

B: Support the entrepreneur because they provide jobs which drive our economy. Support the rich's efforts to gain more wealth because they will pull up the rest with them. Set a playing field to allow them to invest more and more garnering even more wealth because that creates even more jobs.

C: As long as the rich keep getting richer then the poor will look poorer because the rich can always get richer fast than the poor can. Bill Gates earning 8 billion in a year rather than 4 billion offsets a lot of mediocre raises for the lower and middle class at their jobs. But that doesn't mean its a bad thing.



Now the idealist in you wants to say:

Why should the rich make more money? We should tax them even more and give that money to the poor without considering the fact that the more you take from the rich the less jobs are created and by giving that money to the poor rather than allowing the rich to create jobs, which can increase the stature of the poor, all you are really doing is keeping them down.

See my home city of New Orleans as an example.

We have done that so long that now the businesses wont come here. They used Katrina as a good excuse to get out of jobs. So now the entitlement crowd is back without the entrepreneur crowd to support them.

This is economic liberalism run amock.


This is what many on this board can understand, but refuse to consider because they spend too much time thinking "what should be" rather than "what is."


Feel free to challenge me on any of it, don't forget to bring along your common sense.
 
Bullshit--------push your ideas too far and the poor which will be nearly everyone will redistribute the wealth before they starve. The Reforms the two Roosevelts instituted saved the capitalistic system. Now GWB&co has done a lot to dismantle all those reforms. If any think that more abuses are not coming as a result, they are crazy. And the reforms will be re instituted to keep the system in balance.
 
History says 90 percent of your post is bunk.

1. South Africa provides an excellent example of growing income disparity. Hell, try pre-1929 U.S. too
2. Jobs get cut to increase profit as well. Have you heard of such a thing?
3. Artificial depression of wages is similarly problematic. The larger problem is absurd CEO pay compared to what they actually do. These days companies hire hotshot CEOs for silly amounts of money to drive their stock prices up. This benefits who? The Carlysle Group's rectum?

While economic simplification is tempting it is INACCURATE. I've never understood the excessive calcification of economic liberal's craniums. Sure you have nice neat theories... THEY DON'T WORK!
 
Originally posted by: Deudalus

Feel free to challenge me on any of it, don't forget to bring along your common sense.

You did indeed use "common sense", in it's purest form. Unfortunately, you applied this common sense to complicated social, economic, and political issues that you have little understanding of academically, which is what really counts. Your diatribe was completely unsourced; that the rich getting richer helps the poor and the opposite doesn't. Which, of course, isn't the least bit supported by American history, especially if you look at wealth gaps in the 20's and 30's, which were particularly stark. I've seen no one credible argue for a return to 1920's/30's politics, economics, or social structure. No one well respected at least.

I assume you're referring to this thread. I suggest you read toward the bottom of the 2nd page.
 
Originally posted by: Deudalus

Feel free to challenge me on any of it, don't forget to bring along your common sense.

Go ahead, keep killing the American Dream, keep pushing the common man down.

See what happens.
 
Originally posted by: Deudalus
This is economic liberalism run amock.

actually it's not economic liberalism at all. it's nanny-statism and creeping socialism. neither of which are liberal, despite the protest of the democratic party.

Originally posted by: Evan Lieb

I assume you're referring to this thread. I suggest you read toward the bottom of the 2nd page.
the second page isn't the same for everyone. i've got my # of posts per page set to 30 (up from 25, which is no longer available since the forum downgrade)
 
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: Deudalus
This is economic liberalism run amock.

actually it's not economic liberalism at all. it's nanny-statism and creeping socialism. neither of which are liberal, despite the protest of the democratic party.

True. Economic liberalism is actually capitalism. One HUGE thing that makes this country so great.

Any attempt to limit or harm rich getting richer is an affront to America and everything it stands for.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Deudalus

Feel free to challenge me on any of it, don't forget to bring along your common sense.

Go ahead, keep killing the American Dream, keep pushing the common man down.

See what happens.

Uh... entrepreneurialism IS the American Dream. The opportunity to be one's own master. Who's keeping who down, Dave?

Otherwise, the rest of the OP is mostly nonsense, regardless of your perspective.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Deudalus

Feel free to challenge me on any of it, don't forget to bring along your common sense.

Go ahead, keep killing the American Dream, keep pushing the common man down.

See what happens.

That "common man" is too drunk and preoccupied with the flicker box to do anything more than piss and moan a little at best. The problems in this country with wealth distribution pale in comparison to the mockery of ideals that is our current political system. Granted it's in shambles because the rich and powerful want to stay rich and powerful regardless of whether or not they support the economy. To the guy raking in over 3 - 400,000 dollars a year, you're awesome cause the cards lined up for you and if you earned it more power to you. However, I FEEL that most people raking in that kind of dough who actually WORKED to get there give quite a bit back to society and most likely the communities from which they came. To those people making 2, 3 ,4 million dollar a year salaries cause their daddy knew another guys grandaddy. You can go suck it.

But, the sense of entitlement in our society is far out of hand. "I deserve cable TV cause my neighbor's got it." Screw that and your bankrupt principles. Your family did a very poor job educating you on what it takes to get ahead in this world. I'm sorry, but I DO NOT work so YOU can drive a new car on a bicycle budget. Everybody doesn't get to have a new car or a 3000 sq. ft. home just cause their mom and dad got freaky one night and forgot the latex. You want a new car and cable TV, GO OUT AND FRIGGEN EARN IT. YOU DON'T HAVE TO COME FROM OLD MONEY OR EVEN HAVE SOME OVERPRICED EDUCATION TO DO IT. IF YOU ARE WILLING TO WORK, THERE ARE JOBS OUT THERE THAT WILL PAY YOU A DECENT WAGE. But, jobs that actually require hard work and determination to succeed at are beneath a great deal of these people who can't understand why they don't own Citibank.
 
I guess some of you think it's a complete coincidence that the 20th century saw the biggest expansion of government programs coincide with the biggest economic expansion in history.
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: Deudalus
This is economic liberalism run amock.

actually it's not economic liberalism at all. it's nanny-statism and creeping socialism. neither of which are liberal, despite the protest of the democratic party.

True. Economic liberalism is actually capitalism. One HUGE thing that makes this country so great.

Any attempt to limit or harm rich getting richer is an affront to America and everything it stands for.

Screw the rich. America is supposed to be where EVERYONE can richer should that be their endeavor.
Nor is it even relevant really. The commies here don't care if the rich get richer so long as it's one of their old money cult of personality idols getting richer. When they say "the rich" here, they're differentiating solely on the basis of political ideology. Just ask McOwen here... he'll tell you that "rich" is anyone who doesn't agree with his political ideology regardless of income or assets. He's said this many times and even used number figures of like $50K and above when pressured.
 
Originally posted by: senseamp
I guess some of you think it's a complete coincidence that the 20th century saw the biggest expansion of government programs coincide with the biggest economic expansion in history.

Of course not. How do you suppose government gets its funding?
 
Actually, the politics of piggishness ended up being an unmitigated disaster for the rich also during the great depression. As they ran into the one problem that plagues monopoly big business. They depressed average wages to so great an extent, that they killed of the very customer they need to buy their products. And their income stream is thus cut off.

Now we risk a different national suicide. Americans forced to work for starvation wages so those products can be sold at artificially low prices on foreign Markets. And nations like India and China will be the inheritors of the American dream of the OP on this thread.

Yes Yes, listen to Deudalus, he can show us how to be the new Haiti.
 
Originally posted by: senseamp
I guess some of you think it's a complete coincidence that the 20th century saw the biggest expansion of government programs coincide with the biggest economic expansion in history.



Of course it is. It doesn't fit within their magical and simple formulas so it's pretty much discounted.

Among the things I don't understand, why do people keep arguing for an economic model that utterly failed the world.
 
Well, let's see...

1). I see few people saying people shouldn't have the opportunity to get rich. It's that most people haven't seen any real change in income, while "the rich" are making money at an ever increasing rate Now, imaging Sam Walton making 20 billion instead of 40. Do you think Sam would have said "Hey I'm losing money!!!" No, Sam would have said. "I made 20 billion dollars", because Sam could count. PS, Sam worked because he loved it, not because he could make more.

2)I note you selectively choose the person who invented the ipod. I bet it wasn't the people or person who made it. Someone made money off that idea, and financed it. By having a lot of money, they made money.

3) Excuse me, but who has advocated that everyone make the same? Please tell me who these forum members are!

It is true that people expect to be paid differently for different work. That's perfectly reasonable. So a "median" worker (based on median income) pay is historically pretty flat. He isn't much better or worse off than say in 1982. His CEO typically made 42 times what he did.

In 1990, the CEO and the worker still do the same job, so their pay is flat, right? Well no. The CEO doing the same work makes 107 times as much now.

As of 2004, that's hit 431 to 1, and for doing the same work. Why? Because the CEO has an in. The board members want more. He wants more. Well, the "club" gives themselves a big raise. Are they doing more? No, but they want more, and since they dole out the bucks, they stand first in line, and not based on merit.

Example: Coca Cola execs promised the shareholders that they wouldn't get a bonus unless they met certain goals. As the time drew near, it was apparent that they weren't going to make it. So they didn't get the money, right? No, they lowered the standard so they still made the bonus. That's earning their pay! :roll:

4) You keep mentioning entrepreneurs. If people have ideas and can earn money off them good. As I have illustrated, certainly the Coke execs made lots of money on their idea.

Lastly "rich" people create jobs. That's because they have the money. A long time ago people still had jobs, but instead of working for multinational outfits they worked for locally owned business who kept less of the communities money in their pockets. If there is a need, then someone will fill it even if they earn a petty 10 million and don't have hundred million dollar parachutes.
 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Actually, the politics of piggishness ended up being an unmitigated disaster for the rich also during the great depression. As they ran into the one problem that plagues monopoly big business. They depressed average wages to so great an extent, that they kill of the very customer they need to buy their products. And their income stream is thus cut off.

Now we risk a different national suicide. Americans forced to work for starvation wages so those products can be sold at artificially low prices on foreign Markets. And nations like India and China will be the inheritors of the American dream of the OP on this thread.

Yes Yes, listen to Deudalus, he can show us how to be the Haiti.

Do you even know anything about what causes the Great Depression? Anything? Because you're always posting about it to support some argument but I have never once seen you post anything that was actually the cause. Here's a couple tips: monopolies were outlawed decades before it happened, and it was the dollar that was depressed not wages.
Maybe it you could just pretend to be historically accurate, the rest of your arguments might have some validity.
 
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: senseamp
I guess some of you think it's a complete coincidence that the 20th century saw the biggest expansion of government programs coincide with the biggest economic expansion in history.

Of course not. How do you suppose government gets its funding?

By investing in the people and infrastructure and reaping the rewards.
 
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: senseamp
I guess some of you think it's a complete coincidence that the 20th century saw the biggest expansion of government programs coincide with the biggest economic expansion in history.

Of course not. How do you suppose government gets its funding?

By investing in the people and infrastructure and reaping the rewards.

This isn't chicken or the egg here. Economic expansion had to happen first so that government could have the capital to re-invest. Many countries have tried the invest first notion you're presenting here and their economies all imploded through inflation.

This is an odd argument you (and techs in his other thread) are using here. I don't recall ever hearing conservatives or big business complain about infrastructure investments. Getting government to build their roads and schools is usually among their favorite externalities. OTOH, I have heard liberal complain many times about how the people build the highways that Wal-Mart (or insert big business here) gets to ship their goods cheaply on.
 
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: senseamp
I guess some of you think it's a complete coincidence that the 20th century saw the biggest expansion of government programs coincide with the biggest economic expansion in history.

Of course not. How do you suppose government gets its funding?

By investing in the people and infrastructure and reaping the rewards.

This isn't chicken or the egg here. Economic expansion had to happen first so that government could have the capital to re-invest. Many countries have tried the invest first notion you're presenting here and their economies all imploded through inflation.

This is an odd argument you (and techs in his other thread) are using here. I don't recall ever hearing conservatives or big business complain about infrastructure investments. Getting government to build their roads and schools is usually among their favorite externalities. OTOH, I have heard liberal complain many times about how the people build the highways that Wal-Mart (or insert big business here) gets to ship their goods cheaply on.

Shhh.... don't pop his bubble. It's the only way his kind survive...
 
Pure capitalism or pure socialism are doomed to failure. Economics are far too complex (and individual humans far too greedy/corrupt) for any system to work perfectly. All we can hope for is a moderately stable balance, and in reality, all of our power-structure is so corrupt and inefficient that we can count on some more very hard times in the future. It won't be the Republicans fault, it won't be the Democrats fault, it will be BOTH, and pretty much all of us as well, to blame in the end.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Go ahead, keep killing the American Dream, keep pushing the common man down.

See what happens.

He's right, Dave. The rich keep society going. Who buys the boats, eats at the fancy restaurants, hires wage workers, et al? Surely not the poor man.
 
Vic asks--------Do you even know anything about what causes the Great Depression? Anything? Because you're always posting about it to support some argument but I have never once seen you post anything that was actually the cause. Here's a couple tips: monopolies were outlawed decades before it happened, and it was the dollar that was depressed not wages.
Maybe it you could just pretend to be historically accurate, the rest of your arguments might have some validity.

I still maintain that is what happened. The 1920's was a period of great economic expansion but the benefits did not go to the average person. I suggest you read the various Schelinger books on the crisis of the old order. Lots of causes in addition, but the root causes were the same world wide. The customer could no longer afford to buy the products the system was capable of producing, less production resulted, less employment resulted, and so it went.

Excess concentration of wealth is always bad. No matter what the system, an economy can't distribute what is not produced.
 
One of the most common misconceptions about capitalism is that regulating it harms it.

The fact is capitalism without regulation would be anarchy.

Think about the recent "sub-prime" mortgage collapse, the destruction of the rainforests in south america(and around the world), the Enron/California energy scandal, any number of stock market crashes in the past century...

all of those things were either caused by lack of regulation, or "fixed" by adding regulation.

That's why we have monopoly laws. (We used to have monopsony laws too...)

Capitalism NEEDS regulation in order to stay capitalism. Because the fact is, capitalism grants a lot of power to people. And it is surprisingly easy to circumvent the "rules" of capitalism so that you're guaranteed to win...at the cost of others. Which isn't always bad, but is often destroys the possibility of 'competition' and leads to serious economic problems. Think "price fixing."

So....getting down to it, you say that it is good that the "rich keep getting richer." I say that has nothing to do with anything. The health of our economic system depends upon how well that system is functioning. Just like you need to change the oil in your car on a regular basis, you also need to 'tune up' the economic system on a regular basis. That's why we have tax incentives, new regulations, removal of old regulations, and YES -- even redistribution of wealth.

I personally believe that there is a potential for unlimited wealth.

And in order to continue on the path towards unlimited wealth, we need to have a good economic system.

As an example, looking at the US now, compared to the rest of the world, we are at a competitive disadvantage because our healthcare costs are much higher than other countries. Our businesses are burdened by paying healthcare costs that their competitors in other countries do not have to pay because of socialized medicine. I believe that socialized universal medicine acts as a 'lubricant' for our economy. Not only can it make businesses more competitive, it also provides more 'wealth' for everyone, in the form of better health.

Or look at the enormous tax incentives Americans have for buying a new home. (You get the deduct the interest from your mortgage in your taxes.) This is a huge 'lubricant' to the economy...allowing more people to buy better homes. It is a redistribution of wealth...and one that benefits our entire economy, and almost everyone in it.

A good economy requires regulation. Sometimes the rich get richer because they are working outside the best interests of the system, instead of participating in it in a positive way. In those cases, regulation is needed to keep our economy healthy.

 
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