Calling all old school tech guys

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: TangoJuliet

Originally posted by: RebateMonger
The ST157A is an early IDE drive, with standard 40-pin data connector. If you replace it, be sure to identify Pin 1. If you reverse the connections on either the motherboard or the hard drive, you risk destroying the drive controller (I've done it). Early boards didn't have protection against this error.

Where would I be able to find a good working drive? How much do they go for?

If the HDD is replaced then how would I go about reloading the OS? I'm assuming that my co-worker no longer has any of the installation disks.

I would say it's not worth the effort and to just get DOSBox running on a more modern PC.
With a little effort, he can probably track down how to get the old games loaded and running.

 

[zerocool84]

WOW this computer is so old, I feel like going Back In Time with Huey Lewis.

 

[TangoJuliet]

Originally posted by: MadAmos
flea bay

wow, i actually remember those disks

so what kind of HDD would I need to replace this one?

 

[TangoJuliet]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: TangoJuliet

Originally posted by: RebateMonger
The ST157A is an early IDE drive, with standard 40-pin data connector. If you replace it, be sure to identify Pin 1. If you reverse the connections on either the motherboard or the hard drive, you risk destroying the drive controller (I've done it). Early boards didn't have protection against this error.

Where would I be able to find a good working drive? How much do they go for?

If the HDD is replaced then how would I go about reloading the OS? I'm assuming that my co-worker no longer has any of the installation disks.

I would say it's not worth the effort and to just get DOSBox running on a more modern PC.
With a little effort, he can probably track down how to get the old games loaded and running.

how would I go about buying/building a DOSBox?

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: TangoJuliet
so what kind of HDD would I need to replace this one?

Well, you MIGHT be able to put most any modern IDE drive in it. The power draw is about the same. The BIOS won't know how to auto-detect something that big. But if you custom-set the drive parameters to something the BIOS does know about (40 MB or so), it just might work. You just won't be able to access about 99.99% of the drive.

I think I still have a 200 MB Conner IDE drive around. But last time I tried to spin it up, after leaving it sitting around for five years, I don't think it was working any more.

 

[Paperdoc]

The rechargable Ni/Cd battery I've seen in machines of that era actually looked like several button batteries stacked together and sealed in a shrink-wrap plastic sleeve to make them one unit. There were two legs - one each end - to solder into the mobo. The plastic wrap on mine was red, but could be just about any color. Mobo may actually be marked "Batt + -" or something like that.

Since this has been out of service for a long time, chances are the battery is useless and won't hold a charge. BUT the way they worked, the Ni/Cd battery did NOT recharge when the computer was turned off. Off really was OFF! It had to be turned on at least to recharge the battery. Even with no battery function, you can still enter values in the CMOS RAM, store them and run the macihne - it will just forget all its settings when shut down if the battery has no charge.

You will need to know the proper settings for the HDD. Look on the unit to see whether it specifies Heads, Sectors, Tracks , and maybe a few other things like Landing Zone or Pre-Comp. When you cursor to the spot to modify these items, it may come up with a list of pre-defined settings labelled as "Type 23", "Type 24", etc. The last choice usually was "Type 47" which was NOT pre-defined and allowed you to enter your own values according to HDD label info.

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: Paperdoc
Even with no battery function, you can still enter values in the CMOS RAM, store them and run the macihne - it will just forget all its settings when shut down if the battery has no charge..

That's what I always thought. But I had a soldered-on CMOS battery fail on a 1992-era laptop, and the laptop wouldn't boot with the dead battery in place, even with AC power. I had to remove the old battery and hook up a good battery. Surprisingly, there was room to solder-in another, much-larger battery, and the laptop once again would boot.

 

[JackMDS]

Some computes are configured Not to boot when the CMOS is Zero.

In some cases an old dead CMOS can actually present to the circuit a form of Short and thus even if you put external power it would not work unless you remove the dead battery.

Solution, you get a plastic thigy that holds 4 AA batteries at RS.

http://www.radioshack.com/prod....jsp?productId=2062253

Cut out the NiCd at the two legs, and solder there the two wires that come from the 4 battery holder.

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: JackMDS
Solution, you get a plastic thigy that holds 4 AA batteries at RS.

That's what I did. I was just amazed that I found ROOM inside a laptop (one of the first of CompuAdd's laptops, a 386SX model).

That was kinda' a cool laptop, especially for the price. It used a medium-size rollerball in the upper-right corner of the keyboard that was MUCH more convenient than "modern" touchpads that sit where your hands hit them while typing. Only negative was that when you plugged the power supply into the jack on the laptop, a BIG arc would occur. Big enough to splash tiny bits of molten metal from the jack. CompuAdd said this was normal behavior.

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: TangoJuliet
If the HDD is replaced then how would I go about reloading the OS? I'm assuming that my co-worker no longer has any of the installation disks.

You need an MS-DOS boot floppy and all the MS-DOS files. Boot to the floppy. Run FDISK to partition the hard drive. Reboot to the floppy and Format the partition and put the System files on it (Format c: /s). Boot to the hard drive. Copy the rest of the DOS files onto the hard drive. Set the Environment in Autoexec.bat so that DOS can find the files.

There's other configuration needed, including Autoexec.bat and Config.sys files. But if you are going to run DOSBox, you'll probably learn about those, too.

 

[Seggybop]

Man!
My first computer was a HeadStart 286 very similar to this. 12mhz CPU, 32mb hard drive, DOS 3.3. It was pretty awesome. I used it for a really long time, until some guy offered to upgrade it for me but was befuddled by its oldness (and this was probably around 15 years ago) and ended up giving me a 486. I was never able to figure out how to get my data off of it, because the HD used the pre-IDE connector. Anyone know if it's possible to convert that somehow? I've still got that HD in my basement somewhere.

 

[tcsenter]

Being that old, you are most likely looking for a real-time clock (RTC) package, classically labeled "Dallas" but can have different names on it depending on the supplier. See:

Dallas RTC chip

ODIN RTC chip

And they weren't always an easy replacement back when direct replacement chips were commonly available, much less today:

Replacing the DS1287/DS12887 Real-Time Clock in a Personal Computer

Hardware Secrets page on replacing RTC packages

 

[TangoJuliet]

Originally posted by: tcsenter
Being that old, you are most likely looking for a real-time clock (RTC) package, classically labeled "Dallas" but can have different names on it depending on the supplier. See:

Dallas RTC chip

ODIN RTC chip

And they weren't always an easy replacement back when direct replacement chips were commonly available, much less today:

Replacing the DS1287/DS12887 Real-Time Clock in a Personal Computer

Hardware Secrets page on replacing RTC packages

Yes, you are correct. I moved out the floppy drive and I found the "Dallas" chip that you were talking about. (As shown here)

http://i186.photobucket.com/al...ik24/ATOT/IMG_0008.jpg

http://i186.photobucket.com/al...ik24/ATOT/IMG_0009.jpg

Now, let me see if I understand this correctly. This Dallas chip is the actual battery and I would need to cut it out and replace it with the links that you posted?

Also, I failed to mention that after booting the computer I get this error message. If I press F1 to resume then I get another error message saying error loading OS - OS not found. I am guessing that the CMOS battery is dead but the HDD is probably dead as well which is why I am getting that 2nd message.

If I replace the battery then I will still be left with a dead HDD so in all actuality if I wanted to get this thing running I would just have to replace the HDD. I would continue to get the CMOS error message but I could bypass it by pressing F1. Is this correct?

Edit: From reading over some of the literature that you provided in the links this is kind of what I have come up with. The chip that is on this board is a Dallas DS1287 chip. This chip is no longer made but they sell a replacement which is a DS12887.

This can be purchased from here.

Now, in order to replace the old with the new I would have to remove the old chip and solder in the new chip. Is that correct? Once again, after this is completed I should no longer get the CMOS error message. Is there anything else I would have to do?

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: TangoJuliet
how would I go about buying/building a DOSBox?

DOSBox
It's a program that allows you to emulate older/slower PCs on newer ones. I imagine with a little looking you can find someone giving away an adequate PC or selling one for next to nothing ($25-50).

 

[TangoJuliet]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: TangoJuliet
how would I go about buying/building a DOSBox?

DOSBox
It's a program that allows you to emulate older/slower PCs on newer ones. I imagine with a little looking you can find someone giving away an adequate PC or selling one for next to nothing ($25-50).

Well, heres the thing. He is trying to get the computer working so that he can play 2 games: TRACON and TOWER. Both are air traffic control simulation games.

I was able to find TRACON 2 (for windows) as abandonware but cannot find the original TRACON or TOWER.

Now, I downloaded DOSBox and ran it on my notebook (WinXP). I loaded up TRACON 2 and it worked great. The game itself will run on XP without DOSBox however, the sounds have to be turned off because it will crash the game immediately. Running the game in DOSBox it runs perfectly with sound. Is there a way to make the window larger? Right now its pretty small.

Also, my friend has a notebook with Vista so there wouldnt be a need for him to go out and buy another computer as he can just run DOSBox on that, right?

Edit: Nevermind, ctrl+enter = fullscreen

 

[CuriousMike]

Maybe I missed this part, but did you just try pressing F1 to resume -- boot with a wonked out BIOS?

 

[CuriousMike]

And, if it's an IDE drive, couldn't you just pull the Harddisk out, connect it to a modern ( or working ) computer, and pull the DOS game off of it?

 

[tcsenter]

Originally posted by: TangoJuliet
Yes, you are correct. I moved out the floppy drive and I found the "Dallas" chip that you were talking about. (As shown here)

That's the one! I'm sorry to say that I won the old school contest.

If I replace the battery then I will still be left with a dead HDD so in all actuality if I wanted to get this thing running I would just have to replace the HDD. I would continue to get the CMOS error message but I could bypass it by pressing F1. Is this correct?

Not necessarily. If the RTC is at least functioning when the power is on, it should boot. But if the RTC is not functioning on any level, the system may well not boot.

Now, in order to replace the old with the new I would have to remove the old chip and solder in the new chip. Is that correct? Once again, after this is completed I should no longer get the CMOS error message. Is there anything else I would have to do?

Read the links I provided, a replacement may not work. Dallas Semiconductor identified an issue with Intel 286 systems that can prevent replacement of DS1287 using the newer DS12887 part. Not all Intel 286 systems are affected but they do not know the scope or extent of the problem.

Also see:

http://epower2go.biz/dalfaq.html

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: TangoJuliet

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: TangoJuliet
how would I go about buying/building a DOSBox?

DOSBox
It's a program that allows you to emulate older/slower PCs on newer ones. I imagine with a little looking you can find someone giving away an adequate PC or selling one for next to nothing ($25-50).

Well, heres the thing. He is trying to get the computer working so that he can play 2 games: TRACON and TOWER. Both are air traffic control simulation games.

I was able to find TRACON 2 (for windows) as abandonware but cannot find the original TRACON or TOWER.

Now, I downloaded DOSBox and ran it on my notebook (WinXP). I loaded up TRACON 2 and it worked great. The game itself will run on XP without DOSBox however, the sounds have to be turned off because it will crash the game immediately. Running the game in DOSBox it runs perfectly with sound. Is there a way to make the window larger? Right now its pretty small.

Also, my friend has a notebook with Vista so there wouldnt be a need for him to go out and buy another computer as he can just run DOSBox on that, right?

Edit: Nevermind, ctrl+enter = fullscreen

Yeah, that should be fine. Does he still have the disks for the games?

 

[TangoJuliet]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: TangoJuliet

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: TangoJuliet
how would I go about buying/building a DOSBox?

DOSBox
It's a program that allows you to emulate older/slower PCs on newer ones. I imagine with a little looking you can find someone giving away an adequate PC or selling one for next to nothing ($25-50).

Well, heres the thing. He is trying to get the computer working so that he can play 2 games: TRACON and TOWER. Both are air traffic control simulation games.

I was able to find TRACON 2 (for windows) as abandonware but cannot find the original TRACON or TOWER.

Now, I downloaded DOSBox and ran it on my notebook (WinXP). I loaded up TRACON 2 and it worked great. The game itself will run on XP without DOSBox however, the sounds have to be turned off because it will crash the game immediately. Running the game in DOSBox it runs perfectly with sound. Is there a way to make the window larger? Right now its pretty small.

Also, my friend has a notebook with Vista so there wouldnt be a need for him to go out and buy another computer as he can just run DOSBox on that, right?

Edit: Nevermind, ctrl+enter = fullscreen

Yeah, that should be fine. Does he still have the disks for the games?

I believe he still has the disks however they are on 5 1/4" floppies. Since the computer is not working there is no way for me to atleast transfer them onto a 3 1/2" floppy. How would I be able to transfer the data?

 

[TangoJuliet]

Originally posted by: CuriousMike
Maybe I missed this part, but did you just try pressing F1 to resume -- boot with a wonked out BIOS?

Yeah, I posted it somewhere.....after I press F1 it just says error OS not found.

 

[Paperdoc]

TangoJuliet, you said,

"Also, I failed to mention that after booting the computer I get this error message. If I press F1 to resume then I get another error message saying error loading OS - OS not found. I am guessing that the CMOS battery is dead but the HDD is probably dead as well which is why I am getting that 2nd message.

If I replace the battery then I will still be left with a dead HDD so in all actuality if I wanted to get this thing running I would just have to replace the HDD. I would continue to get the CMOS error message but I could bypass it by pressing F1. Is this correct?"

HDD is NOT necessarily dead. Machines this old did not automatically detect and install the correct parameters to access the HDD. Those had to be set manually in the BIOS setup screens. Without them, the BIOS cannot read the HDD, so it believes there is none. So it is possible that, once the battery and BIOS problem is fixed, you can find and enter the HDD parameters and get it to work!

By the way, some have suggested you could replace the HDD with a newer one and copy everything over. Be very careful about the size of a replacement. 286-chip-based machines often could not handle larger HDD's. Over the years the size "barrier" changed from 500 MB to 2 GB, then 8 GB, then 20 GB, then 32 GB, then 127 GB with 28-bit LBA, now up into ??PB with 48-bit LBA. Our first unit built in 1993 with a 66 MHz 486 DX2 chip had a Western Digital 320 MB drive. I later installed a newer multi-I/O card that could handle up to 8 GB HDD's. A second companion unit with only a 200 MB drive and a slower CPU ran our store's Point of Sale software (under DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.1) for nearly 15 years until I replaced it a year ago. I was getting worried about slight noises coming from that WD drive - it had been running for most of that time!

 

[Paperdoc]

TangoJuliet, you said,

"I believe he still has the disks however they are on 5 1/4" floppies. Since the computer is not working there is no way for me to atleast transfer them onto a 3 1/2" floppy. How would I be able to transfer the data?"

That implies you have a 5¼" floppy drive available, probably in this old machine. That drive simply hooks up to the floppy drive data ribbon cable, the same one that is used for 3½" floppy drives. However, look closely and you'll see it takes the older 4-pin Molex power connector, the same as many IDE drives. So you could simply remove it from the old machine, maybe clean it up a little, and mount it in a new machine on the same cable as the 3½". Be aware of how Master etc is done here. There are no jumpers like the IDE HDD's. The "A" drive will ALWAYS be the one on the END of the floppy data cable, and the "B" on the middle connector. Then you'd have to tell the new machine's BIOS which type of floppy has been installed in which position - probably the 5¼" is a 1.2 MB floppy.

 

[TangoJuliet]

Originally posted by: Paperdoc
TangoJuliet, you said,

"Also, I failed to mention that after booting the computer I get this error message. If I press F1 to resume then I get another error message saying error loading OS - OS not found. I am guessing that the CMOS battery is dead but the HDD is probably dead as well which is why I am getting that 2nd message.

If I replace the battery then I will still be left with a dead HDD so in all actuality if I wanted to get this thing running I would just have to replace the HDD. I would continue to get the CMOS error message but I could bypass it by pressing F1. Is this correct?"

HDD is NOT necessarily dead. Machines this old did not automatically detect and install the correct parameters to access the HDD. Those had to be set manually in the BIOS setup screens. Without them, the BIOS cannot read the HDD, so it believes there is none. So it is possible that, once the battery and BIOS problem is fixed, you can find and enter the HDD parameters and get it to work!

By the way, some have suggested you could replace the HDD with a newer one and copy everything over. Be very careful about the size of a replacement. 286-chip-based machines often could not handle larger HDD's. Over the years the size "barrier" changed from 500 MB to 2 GB, then 8 GB, then 20 GB, then 32 GB, then 127 GB with 28-bit LBA, now up into ??PB with 48-bit LBA. Our first unit built in 1993 with a 66 MHz 486 DX2 chip had a Western Digital 320 MB drive. I later installed a newer multi-I/O card that could handle up to 8 GB HDD's. A second companion unit with only a 200 MB drive and a slower CPU ran our store's Point of Sale software (under DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.1) for nearly 15 years until I replaced it a year ago. I was getting worried about slight noises coming from that WD drive - it had been running for most of that time!

Is there a way to correct the parameters in the CMOS while the computer is plugged into the wall? Where would I be able to find the information the enter the correct parameters?

 

[TangoJuliet]

Originally posted by: Paperdoc
TangoJuliet, you said,

"I believe he still has the disks however they are on 5 1/4" floppies. Since the computer is not working there is no way for me to atleast transfer them onto a 3 1/2" floppy. How would I be able to transfer the data?"

That implies you have a 5¼" floppy drive available, probably in this old machine. That drive simply hooks up to the floppy drive data ribbon cable, the same one that is used for 3½" floppy drives. However, look closely and you'll see it takes the older 4-pin Molex power connector, the same as many IDE drives. So you could simply remove it from the old machine, maybe clean it up a little, and mount it in a new machine on the same cable as the 3½". Be aware of how Master etc is done here. There are no jumpers like the IDE HDD's. The "A" drive will ALWAYS be the one on the END of the floppy data cable, and the "B" on the middle connector. Then you'd have to tell the new machine's BIOS which type of floppy has been installed in which position - probably the 5¼" is a 1.2 MB floppy.

The only problem is that I don't own a PC anymore. I currently have a iMac and a notebook so I cannot just swap out the 5¼" into another computer. Say the games are on the 5¼"s....and I am able to get the computer running again. Is there a way to copy from the 5¼" to a 3½"?