Calling all legal experts

[JS80]

So basically my fiancee went by herself a while back to put down a deposit on a wedding venue and I was unable to review the contract. The contract says 270 days notice for refund of deposit roll: when she signed it was already within 270 days, clearly that was just there for form) and we're canceling now, with 4 months to go.

Any chance of us getting even a portion of the deposit back? I mean, who cancels 270 days in advance? Am I SOL? The guy called me and was acting like an a-hole so i basically ended the conversation. Mind you this is Easter weekend (March 22) at a nice place. I'm thinking about writing a letter saying if they re-book they return, if not keep it.

It just feels like worst case I file small claims court, and the judge might feel sympathetic and side with me that 270 days is unreasonable and 4 months notice is plenty.

 

[kranky]

I can't imagine you'd get anywhere with small claims court. You're basically asking the judge to say "Don't go by the contract I signed, because now that it's penalizing me I want you to agree that it's unfair and should not be enforced." The judge is going to say if you didn't like that clause, you should have negotiated something different before you signed it.

I suspect the owner will say it's going to be impossible to find anyone else to take Easter weekend but if YOU find someone to take over your spot, he'll refund your deposit.

 

[shopbruin]

all wedding venues have stipulations like that, especially popular ones, on how far out you can cancel. heck some said "put this down to save the date, and then come back six months before to pay the next installment. if you don't pay, you lose that initial deposit."

remember, some of the nice popular places are booked a year or more in advance. they could have lost another couple who wanted that date because your fiancee had already put down a deposit.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: freesia39
all wedding venues have stipulations like that, especially popular ones, on how far out you can cancel. heck some said "put this down to save the date, and then come back six months before to pay the next installment. if you don't pay, you lose that initial deposit."

remember, some of the nice popular places are booked a year or more in advance. they could have lost another couple who wanted that date because your fiancee had already put down a deposit.

Yea, I get it...oh well...

It IS easter weekend...maybe i will be able to find someone to take the place (place does non-wedding events too)...

ugh just so frustrating that there wasn't even a chance of getting deposit back! 270 days??! cmon!


I don't feel as bad though. It was either do the wedding here for $30k all in or $12k at the new place.

 

[pulse8]

That timeframe doesn't sound too unreasonable for a wedding venue.

 

[compman25]

If they're being assholes about it, be one back. It's yours for the day. Tell them your having nambla convention there and you are going to advertise heavily where it is being held.

 

[teddyv]

How much are we talking here? If it is $50 then that could easily be covered by the administrative hassle of rebooking it. Add a couple more zeros and you might have a shot at getting some back.

If it is a significant amount, ask for all of it back - if they refuse then ask for some. If they still refuse, wait until they re-book it then take them to small claims court arguing that liquidated damage clauses are to make the aggrieved party whole, not as a way for the "harmed" party to generate additional income. Most small claims courts will make you sit with a mediator through several attempts to settle, just take whatever you think is fair.

Do a little research into punitive liquidation clauses, here is something" from the first google page I hit:

"Liquidated Damages Clause: a clause in a contract which sets out the compensation to be paid in the event of a breach or a default of the terms of the contract. The compensation set out in a liquidated damages clause should be a genuine preestimate of the loss suffered as a result of the noncompletion of the contract. An example would be an amount payable per day in the event of the noncompletion of a building project. If the amount specified is not considered a genuine estimate of the losses incurred, and the clause is perceived to be solely an incentive for the completion of the contract, the clause is deemed a penalty clause and is not legally enforceable."

 

[Regs]

Yes it could be ruled as a unconscionable contract or clause. Basically you signed a contract with a "oppressive or overly harsh clause". This is what we call in business law "Substantive Unconscionability". Courts generally focus on provisions that deprive one party of the benefits of the agreement or leave the party without a remedy for nonperformance.

In your state or even local town you could also have laws and policies for such contract clauses that could leave them unenforceable.


Small court will likely decide that the time frame of the cancellation is reasonable. Document everything and contact them by e mail as much as possible if you decide to go this route.

 

[dirtboy]

Contract law is very clear. If you sign a contract you are bound to it and in this case you gave consideration (a deposit) for it.

The good thing about contract law is there is no law that says it has to be fair, which can also be the bad thing.

In this case your fiancee agreed to a contract and you are bound to its terms. You can't go back later and say, well this isn't fair, so change it.

You will only get your deposit back if the contract holder is generous. You should ask them what, if anything, you can do to get it back. Perhaps if you or they find someone to take the venue on your date.

 

[Regs]

Originally posted by: dirtboy
Contract law is very clear. If you sign a contract you are bound to it and in this case you gave consideration (a deposit) for it.

The good thing about contract law is there is no law that says it has to be fair, which can also be the bad thing.

In this case your fiancee agreed to a contract and you are bound to its terms. You can't go back later and say, well this isn't fair, so change it.

You will only get your deposit back if the contract holder is generous. You should ask them what, if anything, you can do to get it back. Perhaps if you or they find someone to take the venue on your date.

Yes, courts won't decide in your favour (forgive me) by acting stupid. I know what you're getting at. They go by what a reasonable normal day person would assume. A reasonable person would not offer a contract with a dead line for cancellation that has all ready past.

Though there are many ways in the law that protect the offerrer and offerree in a agreement. The law is not all brick and mortar that some would easily assume being burned by it so often.

 

[shopbruin]

Originally posted by: JS80

It IS easter weekend...maybe i will be able to find someone to take the place (place does non-wedding events too)...

it is technically bad wedding etiquette to hold a wedding during a holiday weekend so you may have a harder time, but not everyone subscribes to that anymore. you may be able to find a non religious couple who are looking to do everything quickly.

 

[Corporate Thug]

Originally posted by: dirtboy
Contract law is very clear. If you sign a contract you are bound to it and in this case you gave consideration (a deposit) for it.

The good thing about contract law is there is no law that says it has to be fair, which can also be the bad thing.

In this case your fiancee agreed to a contract and you are bound to its terms. You can't go back later and say, well this isn't fair, so change it.

You will only get your deposit back if the contract holder is generous. You should ask them what, if anything, you can do to get it back. Perhaps if you or they find someone to take the venue on your date.

well said. Sometimes, though rarely, courts might side with you if the terms are patently unconscionable. Very high standard to meet, at 270 day cancellation clause does not meet it.

 

[WildHorse]

Can you subrent it to another couple to recoup some of the money? Or to some other group for a different use?

You might have a chance of escaping strict enforcement of the 270 day notice clause on grounds the requirement was "hidden " in fine print, not prominent in the document, not mentioned in discussion (i.e., unconscionable).

You also might prevail on ground the rentor & your babe had unequal bargaining power, him having framed the document uinfairly against her, demonstrating absence of "good faith" dealing.

What I have in mind is an analogy to dealing in goods (unlike you), where the provisions of the Uniform Comemrcial Code are only enforceable between "merchants," parties that both have fair sophistication to enter a deal knowingly. A "merchant" (analogous to your rentor) can't get enforcement of UCC provisions against a non-merchant (analogous to your innocent fiance) who'se ignorant of the normal course of dealing.

It's a reach, but you might prevail in small claims on some basis like that.

Sorry for your trouble. Last thing a young couple need is to lose a pile of money.

 

[Injury]

If you don't mind me asking, how much was the deposit?

 

[IceBergSLiM]

I haven't gotten my invitation yet when are you sending them out?

 

[geckojohn]

How much of a deposit are you going to lose?

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Injury
If you don't mind me asking, how much was the deposit?

$2200.

Originally posted by: freesia39

Originally posted by: JS80

It IS easter weekend...maybe i will be able to find someone to take the place (place does non-wedding events too)...

it is technically bad wedding etiquette to hold a wedding during a holiday weekend so you may have a harder time, but not everyone subscribes to that anymore. you may be able to find a non religious couple who are looking to do everything quickly.

Holiday weekend was very deliberate. We were on a "budget" so we figured only truly good friends would attend and would act as indirect method of cutting heads. Besides, 99% of my friends are from LA and jewish and her family is jewish.

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
I haven't gotten my invitation yet when are you sending them out?

I guess I could tell you guys clues on where the reception/party is going to be...it's at a restaurant/club in Santa Monica. I'll probably send an e-vite this time...already blew $$ on fridge magnet save the dates for March 22.

 

[Gooberlx2]

Originally posted by: JS80

It IS easter weekend...maybe i will be able to find someone to take the place (place does non-wedding events too)...

If the place is as popular as you make it sound, then get started on CL and other classifieds soon...hopefully it won't be too hard to fill.

 

[teddyv]

Contract law is very clear.

It is very clear you know nothing about it (including, for starters, that it is different in every state.) Courts modify, hold unenforceable, and even cancel contracts all the time.

As I said, try to reason with them. If that doesn't work, do a little research (including your State's codification of treatment of punitive liquidated damages clauses) and give small claims a try.