Californians: Get out and VOTE 11/8/05!!

Feb 3, 2001
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Remember, tomorrow is Special Election day, guys! I highly encourage
everyone to get out and vote. If it gives you nothing else, it gives you
the legitimate right to bitch, piss and moan if things go badly in the
next couple of years :) If they go well, it also gives you bragging
rights to say you helped change the Status Quo.

The biggies are:

Prop 74: Increases teacher tenure laws from 2 years to 5 years. Teachers
have to establish a track record for good performance before being
guaranteed a job for life, and teachers with 2 years of sequential bad
reviews can be dismissed. This one's important for the kids!

Prop 75: Changes Union rules so that public employee unions must ask
permission from Union employees BEFORE they take money from their checks
for political causes. Under current rules the Union can take the money
without telling you first, and if you choose to opt out you can be
thrown out of the Union, stripped of your Union voting rights and forced
to pay all Union dues PLUS $900 a year--that or lose your job. This one
is very, very simple: Ask permission before you take other people's money.

Prop 76: "Live within our means" act. This one's the one that's been
criticized as a "power grab" by Arnold, and nothing could be further
from the truth. The prop does *not* give the governor carte blanche to
cut spending wherever he pleases. Here is what it DOES do:

1. The legislature is only allowed to spend as much money as the state
expects to bring in in revenue.

2. If spending exceeds projected revenue by 1.5% or more, the Governor
can bring the legislature into session, and they have 45 days to correct
the spending imbalance.

3.If--and ONLY if--the legislature refuses to adjust spending, then the
governor can make spending cuts and adjustments to bring the budget in
line with project revenue. After that, the legislature *still* has the
authority to override the governor with a 2/3rds majority vote.

Prop 77: under current law, the legislature of California draws its own
districts, and the people get no vote and no say in the process. In
effect, the Legislature chooses its voters, guaranteeing their positions
of power. Clearly enough, this situation is *not* an example of
Democracy in action but of Democracy derailed.

Under 77: a panel of 3 retired judges, who cannot be all of the same
party affiliation (2 maximum for any given party), are chosen by the
legislature to draw new legislative districts. They are instructed to
draw these districts with the intention of creating zones of equal
percentages of party affiliations (as close as possible to 50% Democrat
and 50% Republican). All 3 judges MUST agree before the changes are
accepted, and then the new districts are put forth to a vote of *the
people* (that's us! W00t!) for final approval. If the people reject the
new districts, the process starts over and the judges work until *the
people* are satisfied with the changes.

Suffice to say, both Republicans and Democrats are *AGAINST* props 76
and 77, since neither wants to be held accountable to the people. Mostly
Democrats and Unions are against 75 and 74. Both parties are
predominantly allied against *the people*, and both have contributed
millions of dollars to the defeat of these propositions (remember those
commercials crying out that "Liberal judges will pick districts,
Republicans will lose big!" ? That was paid for by the Democratic
National Committee. Funny, isn't it? In kind, numerous flyers are
landing in our mailboxes and have been for weeks--bashing Props 76 and
77--and paid for by Republicans.

Anyway, I won't tell you to choose one way or the other, but IMHO the
choice is obvious: It's the people against the politicians, and while
they want to maintain the Status Quo, *we* need change. Whatever your
choices are, for or against any of the above, I encourage you to get out
and make your voice heard. Democracy only works when the people are
engaged in the process, and unless we use those rights we have, we're
bound to lose them entirely.

Here's hoping for the best, whatever that ends up being!

Jason
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
I would if I was home again DMA, I still am registered to vote in CA even, I love throwing a monkey wrench into the govenators plans...and his sleazy ballot initiatives.
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: Steeplerot
I would if I was home again DMA, I still am registered to vote in CA even, I love throwing a monkey wrench into the govenators plans...and his sleazy ballot initiatives.

I see you haven't read the first *word* of the ballot initiatives, just swallowed the tripe that the Union LIARS have fed you. Sad, but I'd be glad if you got out and voted, no matter what. Participation is *essential* to Democracy actually *working*. Without participation, minority groups oppress majorities every time (observe: California Public Employee Unions, who steal from their members and then threaten them with huge fines, revocation of voting privileges and the loss of their *jobs* if they don't want to contribute their own money to the Union boss's cause. Tyranny incarnate, right here in the so-called "Liberal" California.)

Jason
 

chowderhead

Platinum Member
Dec 7, 1999
2,633
263
126
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
I would if I was home again DMA, I still am registered to vote in CA even, I love throwing a monkey wrench into the govenators plans...and his sleazy ballot initiatives.

I see you haven't read the first *word* of the ballot initiatives, just swallowed the tripe that the Union LIARS have fed you. Sad, but I'd be glad if you got out and voted, no matter what. Participation is *essential* to Democracy actually *working*. Without participation, minority groups oppress majorities every time (observe: California Public Employee Unions, who steal from their members and then threaten them with huge fines, revocation of voting privileges and the loss of their *jobs* if they don't want to contribute their own money to the Union boss's cause. Tyranny incarnate, right here in the so-called "Liberal" California.)

Jason

NICE, in the OP, you say that it is important to vote no matter how you want to vote, and then in the next breath you slam Steeplerot because he doesn't agree with on the propositions.
I say send a message to Arnold and VOTE NO on all the propositions. Tell Arnold to get back to Sacramento and work with the legislature and DO the people's business.

Edit: Union members can already opt out of having their dues go for political purposes.
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: chowderhead
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
I would if I was home again DMA, I still am registered to vote in CA even, I love throwing a monkey wrench into the govenators plans...and his sleazy ballot initiatives.

I see you haven't read the first *word* of the ballot initiatives, just swallowed the tripe that the Union LIARS have fed you. Sad, but I'd be glad if you got out and voted, no matter what. Participation is *essential* to Democracy actually *working*. Without participation, minority groups oppress majorities every time (observe: California Public Employee Unions, who steal from their members and then threaten them with huge fines, revocation of voting privileges and the loss of their *jobs* if they don't want to contribute their own money to the Union boss's cause. Tyranny incarnate, right here in the so-called "Liberal" California.)

Jason

NICE, in the OP, you say that it is important to vote no matter how you want to vote, and then in the next breath you slam Steeplerot because he doesn't agree with on the propositions.
I say send a message to Arnold and VOTE NO on all the propositions. Tell Arnold to get back to Sacramento and work with the legislature and DO the people's business.

I didn't slam him, asshat, I just said he bought into the CRAP.

As for "working with the legislature", what the hell do you think he's been trying to do for the last year and a half? The Legislature DOESN'T WANT TO DO THE PEOPLE'S BUSINESS. The Legislature wants to CHOOSE it's voters, TAX them, SPEND their money and when the well runs dry, RAISE the taxes *AGAIN*!!

Send a message to the LEGISLATURE that is trying to screw you, the UNIONS that are LYING THEIR ASSES OFF in countless commercials they paid for with money they STOLE from their members WITHOUT ASKING PERMISSION, and vote YES on 74, 75, 76 and 77. The rest are useless garbage and should be discarded.

YOU, sir, should learn to READ.

Jason
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
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I collected signatures for arnold when I did ballot initiatives for almost 2 years, and some were ok, (the after school program one was a good one imo)

Now I dont need you to tell me he is a union busting scumbag... I know. I met to geezer more times then I can remember.
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: Steeplerot
I collected signatures for arnold when I did ballot initiatives for almost 2 years, and some were ok, (the after school program one was a good one imo)

Now I dont need you to tell me he is a union busting scumbag... I know. I met to geezer more times then I can remember.

The Public Employees Unions in California are in *serious* need of an ass-busting. Let me give you an example. I have a close friend, former French teacher, who's been in the biz for 27 years in the same school district. She's PRO 74, 75, 76 and 77, but *especially* 75. Why? When she heard on the radio commercial that "we already can opt out!" of dues increases for political spending, she contacted the Union rep to opt out.

The union rep agreed to send her the papers, and told her that as a consequence of her withdrawal, she's removed from the Union, she loses ALL her Union voting rights, and if she wants to keep her job she has to register as a Union Non-Member, pay the FULL dues of a MEMBER *PLUS* $900 a year. Now you tell me: Who is going to go for that? The Union is using coercion and THREAT OF FORCE to capture her money, pure and simple. If she doesn't do what they tell her, they FIRE her after TWENTY SEVEN YEARS of service in the same district.

You tell me how that's good, noble, moral or right. You tell me how to justify the existence of a Union that is willing to SKEWER its members because they don't want to have their money forcibly taken from them and spent on political campaigns they don't agree with. How is that part of Democracy? Fairness? Liberty?

The short answer: It isn't. The Union needs to be BUSTED, pure and simple.

Another fact, this one about the Nurse's Union. They represent roughly 60,000 nurses in California, and their commercials would lead you to think they represent ALL nurses, wouldn't you say? Here's the trouble: There are more than 300,000 nurses in California. The Nurses Union represents less than 20% of all Nurses, and yet they're parading around like they represent them all. Tell me, what part of dishonesty do you think is right? What part of misrepresentation is OK?

These are the questions that need to be asked and answered. They're also the questions that the Unions are working overtime to keep Joe Public from asking.

Jason
 

chowderhead

Platinum Member
Dec 7, 1999
2,633
263
126
The Legislature and Arnold worked quite well the 1st year where they passed a lot of legislation to decrease the deficit. I am actually glad that Arnold is there to veto some of the stupid legislature that came down the pipeline i.e. licenses for illegals. Then Arnold started calling the legislature "girlie men" and wanting to kick their butts. Petty things. The Reforms package is a waste of time and money. It doesn't even address fundamental questions about transportation, education funding or health care costs.

Here is what I would have placed on the ballot:
1). On transportation: Sales tax on gasoline and cars, license fees, etc can ONLY be used for transportation needs unless an emergency is declared and 3/4 of the legislature and the governor agree.
2). On Education: Rewrite Prop13 to exclude commerical properties. Audits on education budgets and construction bonds. More charter schools. Management should be held accountable if students do not have books or crumbling classrooms. More local control.
3) On Health care: 100% deduction to small businesses for offering health care. Expand mediCal program. Insure all children under 18. Raise taxes on cigarettes and alcohol to fund these health care programs.

4). Revisit the pension program for state employees. Move new employees to 401k style. This WAS one of Arnold's original ideas but HE chickened out and didn't put it on the ballat.
5). We need to recover more money from the energy mess. Lockyer is spineless for agreeing to pennies on the dollar in settlements. Energy companies fraud and theft by manipulation energy supplies = California structural deficit.

Again, VOTE NO on all of Arnold's proposition..
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: chowderhead
The Legislature and Arnold worked quite well the 1st year where they passed a lot of legislation to decrease the deficit. I am actually glad that Arnold is there to veto some of the stupid legislature that came down the pipeline i.e. licenses for illegals. Then Arnold started calling the legislature "girlie men" and wanting to kick their butts. Petty things. The Reforms package is a waste of time and money. It doesn't even address fundamental questions about transportation, education funding or health care costs.

Here is what I would have placed on the ballot:
1). On transportation: Sales tax on gasoline and cars, license fees, etc can ONLY be used for transportation needs unless an emergency is declared and 3/4 of the legislature and the governor agree.
2). On Education: Rewrite Prop13 to exclude commerical properties. Audits on education budgets and construction bonds. More charter schools. Management should be held accountable if students do not have books or crumbling classrooms. More local control.
3) On Health care: 100% deduction to small businesses for offering health care. Expand mediCal program. Insure all children under 18. Raise taxes on cigarettes and alcohol to fund these health care programs.

4). Revisit the pension program for state employees. Move new employees to 401k style. This WAS one of Arnold's original ideas but HE chickened out and didn't put it on the ballat.
5). We need to recover more money from the energy mess. Lockyer is spineless for agreeing to pennies on the dollar in settlements. Energy companies fraud and theft by manipulation energy supplies = California structural deficit.

Again, VOTE NO on all of Arnold's proposition..

You make some valid points, but also some flawed points:

1. 3/4 is a SuperMajority, and it won't work. When you have a SM situation, the minority, the 25%, tends to control the situation.

2. Don't TOUCH prop 13. BIG mistake.

3. Fair enough, but not on the taxes. While I loathe smoking and drunkenness as much as the next guy, taxing the sins you dislike in order to fun the sins you like is unethical.

4. Exactly true. The public employees are BILKING the state out of billions.

5. Nonsense. The so-called "Deregulation" debacle was anything *but* deregulation. The legislature ALONE is responsible for the energy crisis through absurd policies like forcing the power companies to sell their generators to out of state power companies that CA has no control over and then forcing them to sell at a loss.

Vote YES on 74, 75, 76 and 77. Screw the rest. Those 4 core are all EXCELLENT ideas. Not conclusions to all problems, clearly, but they will help to reign in the legislature and get some responsibility back in the CA gov't.

Jason
 

Titan

Golden Member
Oct 15, 1999
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I like Arnold. He seems like a genuine guy. The trick is who his advisors are. But it seems to me he really wants to help the people of CA and is doing his best. And I don't give that kind of asessment to any politicians. He just seems different. Which means, sadly, his political career may be cut short. You don't wan't honesty in govt, you want your BS right out in front where you can get a good strong whiff of it.

But that's just the opinion of a VTer. CA can wildmudslidequake it's way into the ocean for all I care.

I still can't help laugh uncontrollably when I see Arnold on the news talking as governor though.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
I would if I was home again DMA, I still am registered to vote in CA even, I love throwing a monkey wrench into the govenators plans...and his sleazy ballot initiatives.
The sleazy attack ads against Arnold, from a variety of special interests, have convinced me to vote in favor of these initiatives...had I not been assaulted on a daily basis by these attack ads, I probably would not have even taken notice of the special election.

I say give Arnold a chance with his iniatives...they certainly can't make things any worse then the current status quo in California.

 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
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Arnold got a big F-you from me. He can take his unnecessary, expensive election and shove it up his a$$. All his initiatives will crash and burn, then he will lose re-election. Suck to be you Arnold.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Arnold got a big F-you from me. He can take his unnecessary, expensive election and shove it up his a$$. All his initiatives will crash and burn, then he will lose re-election. Suck to be you Arnold.
It probbaly doesn't make a world of a difference to Arnold...the guy has tons of money...should he lose the next election, he will simply go back to making movies, investing in real estate and living the good life...independent of any obligations to public service.

Sacramento is a nest of vipers and thieves...the attack ads claim that greedy corporations are lining Arnold's pockets, but what do you think the unions are doing?

If the status quo remains, the only thing that will crash and burn in the near future is California's economy.

I mean...let's look at these initiatives.

Prop 74: Arnold wants to extend teacher tenure from 2 years to 5 years...I can see why the teacher's unions are so opposed to this initiative...accountability and education seem to be mutually exclusive concepts in California.

Prop 75: Unions should have restrictions on how they use union dues for political purposes...the power these unions have is demonstrated simply by the sheer magnitude of the misinformation campaign they have launched to fight these ballot initiatives...most of the ads play on people's fears, or are total misrepresentations of the truth...unions, corporations and the likes should not hold so much political power such that they can spew such propoganda at will through media outlets.

Prop 76: Since when is responsible government spending a bad thing?

Prop 77: I trust judges far more then legislators to draw district lines.

Ironically enough, Arnold has received resistance from both Democrat and Republican linked special interests...any time politicians from both sides unite to fight something, it usually is a good thing for the people.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
144
106
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
I would if I was home again DMA, I still am registered to vote in CA even, I love throwing a monkey wrench into the govenators plans...and his sleazy ballot initiatives.
The sleazy attack ads against Arnold, from a variety of special interests, have convinced me to vote in favor of these initiatives...had I not been assaulted on a daily basis by these attack ads, I probably would not have even taken notice of the special election.

I say give Arnold a chance with his iniatives...they certainly can't make things any worse then the current status quo in California.
QFT

with all the lying and underhanded tactics by the opposition, I tend to think that maybe Arnold is onto something with these propositions. I am offended by the daily assault of lies just like you are...and that has changed my perspective almost 180 degrees when it comes to voting on these propositions.

 

herkulease

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2001
3,923
0
0
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Arnold got a big F-you from me. He can take his unnecessary, expensive election and shove it up his a$$. All his initiatives will crash and burn, then he will lose re-election. Suck to be you Arnold.
It probbaly doesn't make a world of a difference to Arnold...the guy has tons of money...should he lose the next election, he will simply go back to making movies, investing in real estate and living the good life...independent of any obligations to public service.

Sacramento is a nest of vipers and thieves...the attack ads claim that greedy corporations are lining Arnold's pockets, but what do you think the unions are doing?

If the status quo remains, the only thing that will crash and burn in the near future is California's economy.

I mean...let's look at these initiatives.

Prop 74: Arnold wants to extend teacher tenure from 2 years to 5 years...I can see why the teacher's unions are so opposed to this initiative...accountability and education seem to be mutually exclusive concepts in California.

Prop 75: Unions should have restrictions on how they use union dues for political purposes...the power these unions have is demonstrated simply by the sheer magnitude of the misinformation campaign they have launched to fight these ballot initiatives...most of the ads play on people's fears, or are total misrepresentations of the truth...unions, corporations and the likes should not hold so much political power such that they can spew such propoganda at will through media outlets.

Prop 76: Since when is responsible government spending a bad thing?

Prop 77: I trust judges far more then legislators to draw district lines.

Ironically enough, Arnold has received resistance from both Democrat and Republican linked special interests...any time politicians from both sides unite to fight something, it usually is a good thing for the people.


For me I never understood the ads against 75. If they aren't forced to contribute then what harm does requiring paperwork do?

As for Prop 77. It really doesnt matter who draws it up really. they are all political. I see know different who draws it up. They'll all engage in gerrymandering. You do know that judges are elected in california right? Trial court judges that is. They generally don't come out and say I'm a Dem or Repub but you can easily tell from all the endorsements they get.
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: herkulease
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Arnold got a big F-you from me. He can take his unnecessary, expensive election and shove it up his a$$. All his initiatives will crash and burn, then he will lose re-election. Suck to be you Arnold.
It probbaly doesn't make a world of a difference to Arnold...the guy has tons of money...should he lose the next election, he will simply go back to making movies, investing in real estate and living the good life...independent of any obligations to public service.

Sacramento is a nest of vipers and thieves...the attack ads claim that greedy corporations are lining Arnold's pockets, but what do you think the unions are doing?

If the status quo remains, the only thing that will crash and burn in the near future is California's economy.

I mean...let's look at these initiatives.

Prop 74: Arnold wants to extend teacher tenure from 2 years to 5 years...I can see why the teacher's unions are so opposed to this initiative...accountability and education seem to be mutually exclusive concepts in California.

Prop 75: Unions should have restrictions on how they use union dues for political purposes...the power these unions have is demonstrated simply by the sheer magnitude of the misinformation campaign they have launched to fight these ballot initiatives...most of the ads play on people's fears, or are total misrepresentations of the truth...unions, corporations and the likes should not hold so much political power such that they can spew such propoganda at will through media outlets.

Prop 76: Since when is responsible government spending a bad thing?

Prop 77: I trust judges far more then legislators to draw district lines.

Ironically enough, Arnold has received resistance from both Democrat and Republican linked special interests...any time politicians from both sides unite to fight something, it usually is a good thing for the people.


For me I never understood the ads against 75. If they aren't forced to contribute then what harm does requiring paperwork do?

As for Prop 77. It really doesnt matter who draws it up really. they are all political. I see know different who draws it up. They'll all engage in gerrymandering. You do know that judges are elected in california right? Trial court judges that is. They generally don't come out and say I'm a Dem or Repub but you can easily tell from all the endorsements they get.

The Unions are terrified of Prop 75 because at the moment, they have carte blanche to steal from their members at any time, without a vote and without notification. If 75 passes, they will have to *ask* permission before they take money out of their members' paychecks. Now, if they're truthful and they do indeed represent according to their memberships' desires, then there's no problem if 75 passes: they will continue to enjoy a similar revenue stream. If they're lying, though, and I think it's clear that they are, if 75 passes they will find a sizeable portion of their membership will *refuse* to contribute to political spending. Plainly enough, most folks want to spend their hard earned money on (*gasp!*) themselves and their loved ones.

77 will, at the minimum, remove the direct influence of politicians on their own districts. While it's not a perfect solution, it's VASTLY preferable to the way it is now. Under current law, Democrats and Republicans, who are CLOSE friends, make no mistake, draw their own districts, CHOOSE THEIR OWN VOTERS and that's that. Under 77, Judges who cannot be all of the same party draw the districts, must reach *consensus* on the districts, and then must submit the districts to a vote of the people.

74, 75, 76 and 77 ALL are small pieces of an overall puzzle that's designed to help bring California's outrageous legislature and absurd policies back into some semblance of reason and DEMOCRACY. Right now, there is NO SUCH THING as Democracy in the selection of California's legislature.

It's hilarious how the Democrats, Republicans and Unions are all showing themselves for the ULTRA CONSERVATIVES that they truly are, fighting and LYING to maintain the STATUS QUO. The only thing more pathetic are the number of DUPES who call themselves "Progressives" who are now stabbing the progressive cause in the back because they're too STUPID to see through the lies and the politics.

Jason
 

CellarDoor

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2004
1,574
0
0
I voted No across the board today. However, my ballot went into a Diebold machine, so who knows what I really voted for.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,374
8,499
126
i really don't see how you can vote against the redistricting thing, honestly. i wish we didn't have gerrymandered to hell districts here. people in california finally get a chance to get out of it and they just bend over and ask for more.
 

OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
7,052
0
0
Everyone here bashing these initiatives needs to really take a look at them and see what they are all about. Most of them make sense, and I applaud Arnold for at least trying to fix our budget problems.
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: mribnik1
I voted No across the board today. However, my ballot went into a Diebold machine, so who knows what I really voted for.

I'm glad you got out to vote, man! Sad that you got suckered into the lies and propaganda, but glad that you participated in the process. We need as many hands as we can get :)

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
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Originally posted by: ElFenix
i really don't see how you can vote against the redistricting thing, honestly. i wish we didn't have gerrymandered to hell districts here. people in california finally get a chance to get out of it and they just bend over and ask for more.

"Now you see why Evil will always triumph over good: Because Good is Dumb." --Dark Helmet, Spaceballs

QFT.

Jason
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
Maybe if the supporters dug a little deeper instead of reading the bold title you might be more suspect. Things are not always as they seem, follow the money.
 

CellarDoor

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2004
1,574
0
0
Originally posted by: Todd33
Maybe if the supporters dug a little deeper instead of reading the bold title you might be more suspect. Things are not always as they seem, follow the money.


:thumbsup: