California Will Likely Give Grants to Illegal Students

[Infohawk]

Because people who are working are contributing to our society.

I'm not going to give you a laundry list of what benefits I would give them. Once again, this bill does not give illegal immigrants free money for higher education. It gives children who had no choice in the course of action that led them to live here and have already been here for a number of years money. I'm very okay with that.

You create residency and work history requirements for various benefits, depending on how the math works out. It's really not that big a deal. I'm of the opinion that the US needs as many people who are willing to bust their ass as possible. Legal avenues to accomplish this are vastly preferable to what we have going on now.

Let me rephrase my question. Why do you think limiting open immigration to workers would change anything in terms of numbers? Generations of immigrants have always came here and worked. The numbers of immigrants from your free for all system would still be in the hundreds of millions.

Can you be a little more honest in your second paragraph? These are government handouts to a certain class of legal immigrants. It's free money. How is it not free money? I'm a bit disappointed because at least you were being honest before. Now it just seems like denying that you would give them the same benefits when you can't really explain how that that is the case. My hunch is that you would give them the same benefits but are maybe afraid to defend that would be paid for.

Btw, the US already has a world full of 6 billion people willing to bust their ass off and they're taking advantage of it by outsourcing.

 

[fskimospy]

Let me rephrase my question. Why do you think limiting open immigration to workers would change anything in terms of numbers? Generations of immigrants have always came here and worked. The numbers of immigrants from your free for all system would still be in the hundreds of millions.

Can you be a little more honest in your second paragraph? These are government handouts to a certain class of legal immigrants. It's free money. How is it not free money? I'm a bit disappointed because at least you were being honest before. Now it just seems like denying that you would give them the same benefits when you can't really explain how that that is the case. My hunch is that you would give them the same benefits but are maybe afraid to defend that would be paid for.

Btw, the US already has a world full of 6 billion people willing to bust their ass off and they're taking advantage of it by outsourcing.

I was perfectly honest in my second paragraph. I imagine we just see the issue differently. I don't view people who were dragged some place by their parents as illegal immigrants in the same way as I see the parents themselves. I'm certainly not afraid to defend my positions. (if I were, I wouldn't have them) I think our current immigration situation is xenophobic, short sighted, and self defeating. I think any immigration policy that attempts to tighten immigration restrictions would be even more so.

As for the new work visa people that I would create, I would not give them the same benefits as I've already mentioned. It's the same thing as any state does for people who have recently moved there to work, you must establish residency and employment to a certain extent to qualify, and you could certainly set up time parameters for various benefits. To be honest I have no problem whatsoever with someone collecting Medicare who has been working here and contributing to it for 40 years. I my mind, they earned it. (more than many citizens who will collect it I might add)

The US has had effectively unlimited immigration policies in the past, and it did not lead to these 'hundreds of millions' immigrating. (or even the 1700s-1800's equivalent of hundreds of millions) They would be limited by a host of reasons, not the least of which are work opportunities here, means by which to get here, ties to their home countries, etc... etc. Basically the same things that have always limited immigration.

 

[finglobes]

The sooner California hits rock bottom the quicker it can recover from the lunatics that run it

California Is A Failed State

http://www.businessinsider.com/california-is-a-failed-state-2011-5

 

[Jaskalas]

Progressives sooner or later you are just going to have to get used to the idea that you won't be able to reduce every issue to race. Do you really think it would be any different if 12 million lily white Canadians swarmed over the border illegally into the country demanding social services?

The Canadians could read and write, so yeah that's a huge difference.

 

[Jaskalas]

All you're saying is you don't want them to leave. That has nothing to do with whether it's possible to get rid of them.

You are confused, I want them gone, I want the border SEALED.

The problem is they will not leave. That they do not want to, that our people support them, means everything. It means that it is not possible because it is not practical. There will not be a government solution to remove them.

You force their hand and they will riot. Our people will join them.

I'm looking at this practically. The southwest has been forever altered. Americans are not getting it back. The best we could hope for is to use our military to seal the border, to absolutely end the inflow - and then attempt to assimilate the 20-30 million people. One day one or two hundred years from now the culture gap might be erased.

That's no easy task, but it might be subtle and reasonable enough to survive the Democratic process. IF it's not already too late to handle this without a civil war.

Your questions were for those who support open borders, I do not. I'm merely thinking of the ONLY answer that does not kill millions.

 

[fskimospy]

The sooner California hits rock bottom the quicker it can recover from the lunatics that run it

California Is A Failed State

http://www.businessinsider.com/california-is-a-failed-state-2011-5

That is some of the dumbest analysis of California's problems that I have ever seen.

 

[Zebo]

lolifornia.

 

[marincounty]

Funny how it's the rural right wing areas of California that are doing the worst, the highest unemployment and the most use of welfare and food stamps. We're suffering from the failed experiment with Republican Governors.

 

[soulcougher73]

I fail to see how electing not to deny people educational aid for actions that they didn't willingly take is equivalent to 'no limits on immigration, school for everyone'. The bill says that if you were brought into the US after you were born, but before you were 16, you can be eligible for these grants. It's for kids that got yanked over the border by their parents when they were too young to do anything about it.

Wow talk about another incentive to enter our country illegally. Like they dont have enough already. Fuck this country, it is becoming the shit hole of the world.

 

[Zebo]

Funny how it's the rural right wing areas of California that are doing the worst, the highest unemployment and the most use of welfare and food stamps. We're suffering from the failed experiment with Republican Governors.

You can't put a fence post in w/o a permit...I wonder why.

 

[marincounty]

You can't put a fence post in w/o a permit...I wonder why.

People keep talking about all the regulations killing business. How about the real reason, they have no customers because the customers have no job. And they have no job because.....
Bush crashed the economy.
Nevada has low regulation, low taxes, it should be paradise, right? It is in even worse shape than California.

 

[fskimospy]

Funny how it's the rural right wing areas of California that are doing the worst, the highest unemployment and the most use of welfare and food stamps. We're suffering from the failed experiment with Republican Governors.

No, California is suffering from a failed experiment with direct democracy. (and a failed experiment with state legislature budgeting rules of procedure)

 

[fskimospy]

Wow talk about another incentive to enter our country illegally. Like they dont have enough already. Fuck this country, it is becoming the shit hole of the world.

You're in the middle of Kansas. Why do you care? Nobody is coming to your state.

It never ceases to blow my mind that the states who have the least to 'fear' from immigration are frequently the most xenophobic.

 

[Infohawk]

I was perfectly honest in my second paragraph. I imagine we just see the issue differently. I don't view people who were dragged some place by their parents as illegal immigrants in the same way as I see the parents themselves. I'm certainly not afraid to defend my positions. (if I were, I wouldn't have them) I think our current immigration situation is xenophobic, short sighted, and self defeating. I think any immigration policy that attempts to tighten immigration restrictions would be even more so.

As for the new work visa people that I would create, I would not give them the same benefits as I've already mentioned. It's the same thing as any state does for people who have recently moved there to work, you must establish residency and employment to a certain extent to qualify, and you could certainly set up time parameters for various benefits. To be honest I have no problem whatsoever with someone collecting Medicare who has been working here and contributing to it for 40 years. I my mind, they earned it. (more than many citizens who will collect it I might add)

The US has had effectively unlimited immigration policies in the past, and it did not lead to these 'hundreds of millions' immigrating. (or even the 1700s-1800's equivalent of hundreds of millions) They would be limited by a host of reasons, not the least of which are work opportunities here, means by which to get here, ties to their home countries, etc... etc. Basically the same things that have always limited immigration.

The US did not have an unlimited immigration policy. I'm not sure why you think they did. Ever heard of the Chinese Exclusion Act? Or the Emergency Quota Act? It's even easier to move in this day in age compared to the 19th century. Global populations are much higher than in the 19th century. So you would see a huge influx of migrants.

Residency requirements? Do you think kids don't go to school because their parents are from another state? Very few public services are limited by residency requirements except maybe higher education. So all these new migrants and their kids (who you know you wouldn't refuse anything) would need public services. How would we pay for it? These migrants' low salaries certainly wouldn't generate sufficient taxes. If the population of the USA suddenly increased to 500 million you're naive if you think the standard of living of the US would stay the same on average. And the old 250 million natives would be getting a smaller share of public services since they would have to compensate for the new migrants.

 

[Infohawk]

Funny how it's the rural right wing areas of California that are doing the worst, the highest unemployment and the most use of welfare and food stamps. We're suffering from the failed experiment with Republican Governors.

How is this at all relevant to this thread?

 

[Infohawk]

The problem is they will not leave. That they do not want to, that our people support them, means everything. It means that it is not possible because it is not practical. There will not be a government solution to remove them.

You force their hand and they will riot. Our people will join them.

You keep saying that but you don't really have any evidence for it. It's just common sense that people are not going to stay if they cannot collect wages. Would they riot? I doubt it. Anyway it would almost be beneficial if they did because they could be arrested and deported. Do you just give in if someone riots? There's no human right to stay in a country illegally. It would just take a government with some balls. It's not like anybody would be setting up concentration camps. Anyway I'm guessing you're just going to repeat that it's impossible so I'll let you get the last word in.

 

[Linflas]

You're in the middle of Kansas. Why do you care? Nobody is coming to your state.

It never ceases to blow my mind that the states who have the least to 'fear' from immigration are frequently the most xenophobic.

According to the latest available data more illegals are coming to Kansas than to New Mexico, they are #21 in the list of estimated illegal population by state. So much for dumb assed stereotypes from the coasts.

 

[fskimospy]

According to the latest available data more illegals are coming to Kansas than to New Mexico, they are #21 in the list of estimated illegal population by state. So much for dumb assed stereotypes from the coasts.

Hahaha, nice try. What our good friend Linflas forgets to mention is what exactly #21 means.

According to the DHS, 74% of all illegal immigrants live in the 10 states with the most.
http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/ill_pe_2006.pdf

While I couldn't find exact numbers for Kansas, considering the almost logarithmic scale by which the rest of the list operates, I'm guessing that Kansas houses something in the neighborhood of 0.3% to 0.5% of the illegal immigrants in the US. (maybe less) So much for dumb ass attempts at equivalence from the flyover.

 

[fskimospy]

The US did not have an unlimited immigration policy. I'm not sure why you think they did. Ever heard of the Chinese Exclusion Act? Or the Emergency Quota Act? It's even easier to move in this day in age compared to the 19th century. Global populations are much higher than in the 19th century. So you would see a huge influx of migrants.

Residency requirements? Do you think kids don't go to school because their parents are from another state? Very few public services are limited by residency requirements except maybe higher education. So all these new migrants and their kids (who you know you wouldn't refuse anything) would need public services. How would we pay for it? These migrants' low salaries certainly wouldn't generate sufficient taxes. If the population of the USA suddenly increased to 500 million you're naive if you think the standard of living of the US would stay the same on average. And the old 250 million natives would be getting a smaller share of public services since they would have to compensate for the new migrants.

I have heard of them (in fact I have repeatedly mentioned them in other threads about how they were pointless xenophobic efforts similar to our attempts today). We did have effectively unlimited immigration from quite a few areas of the world however, without such results. Anyways, that doesn't matter because I was advocating work based immigration, not some huge worldwide tent camp.

There are many public services that are limited by residency requirements. Like higher education, health care, and more. You can also tailor work visas for individuals and not their children, etc... etc. These are all problems that are really, really easily overcome, and none of it would lead to a sudden increase to 500 million people. Your scenario is simply absurd hyperbole. If you think that's going to happen, go find me a study on US guest worker programs that says the US population will increase by 40% due to immigration. There are lots of studies on the topic, so go find some evidence to back up your opinion instead of just making things up.

 

[Infohawk]

I have heard of them (in fact I have repeatedly mentioned them in other threads about how they were pointless xenophobic efforts similar to our attempts today). We did have effectively unlimited immigration from quite a few areas of the world however, without such results. Anyways, that doesn't matter because I was advocating work based immigration, not some huge worldwide tent camp.

There are many public services that are limited by residency requirements. Like higher education, health care, and more. You can also tailor work visas for individuals and not their children, etc... etc. These are all problems that are really, really easily overcome, and none of it would lead to a sudden increase to 500 million people. Your scenario is simply absurd hyperbole. If you think that's going to happen, go find me a study on US guest worker programs that says the US population will increase by 40% due to immigration. There are lots of studies on the topic, so go find some evidence to back up your opinion instead of just making things up.

You haven't really brought forward any specific historical facts about open immigration. I think of post-colonial mayhem in India when it comes mass migration. Why do you try to paint all your opponents as xenophobes? Do you really refuse to accept that someone might just think mass immigration is bad economically? Are you really that smug about your beliefs?

I doubt your ideas of immigrate to work are the same as the guest worker programs. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's not what you're talking about since you want people to move here permanently as opposed to them merely being a guest. Also, it's hard to take your claims that these immigrants wouldn't be given benefits seriously when you basically want to give benefits to those here illegally anyway. So really, I'm not seeing "guest worker" when you talk. I'm hearing "anyone who can work" can get a job. That's basically most of the world. And if you just want a program for your British roommate (because it seems like that's where you are emotionally with all of this) that's really a whole different ballgame that has very little to do with this thread.