California Will Likely Give Grants to Illegal Students

[dali71]

Good. I'm all for California speeding up their impending demise, just so the rest of the country can see the end result of unchecked liberalism.

 

[Jaskalas]

Who are you asking?

It's an open question, and people are afraid to answer.

 

[pcgeek11]

LOL California....

 

[Ape]

Question: There are 10s of millions already here. They're having children and combined that population will one day be 1/4th of the United States. What are you going to do about it?

Take away all hand outs to illegals including education, medical care, food stamps, welfare. Take away the ability of anchor babies. Nail every company to the wall who hires illegals. Basically take away every reason they come here illegally To begin with. It's called self deportation and it will save us billions. Then once they are back home, they can apply just like everyone else is supposed to.

 

[irishScott]

Well I guess California will surpass Illinois in debt over the next decade or so.

 

[Infohawk]

It's an open question, and people are afraid to answer.

I doubt people are afraid to answer. It's really easy to deal with the illegals that are here but there isn't willpower on either side of the political spectrum. If you cut off people's ability to earn wages and get benefits, they will leave on their own. If we were to really start punishing people and businesses who employed illegals harshly, they would stop doing it. Republicans don't want to do this because they like cheap labor and don't like punishing businesses. Democrats think it's mean and unfair.

 

[irishScott]

Take away all hand outs to illegals including education, medical care, food stamps, welfare. Take away the ability of anchor babies. Nail every company to the wall who hires illegals. Basically take away every reason they come here illegally To begin with. It's called self deportation and it will save us billions. Then once they are back home, they can apply just like everyone else is supposed to.

But that isn't easy. Surely spending money we don't have to send them to college is much easier. We're American liberals, we'll foreclose other peoples' houses to be charitable to illegals if that's what it takes. Worse results for us, but still much easier to undertake.

 

[Double Trouble]

I guess the fact that it's California doing something so idiotic is not a surprise. Hey, that's a great idea, lets give illegal immigrants yet another incentive to come over and bring their kids, they don't have enough incentive apparently!

Just plain dumb. How the idiots in California elect to spend their money is up to them though, so long as they don't come back to the federal government to ask for a bailout because of their idiotic spending I'm fine with it.

 

[Mursilis]

Breaking a law requires Mens rea.

With the vast majority of laws, that's not true at all. Very few laws require a showing of intent.

 

[ichy]

Maryland passed a similarly idiotic law. We're a pretty blue state, but even here it was so over the top that opponents of the law have gathered enough signatures that they'll probably be able to put it on the ballot to repeal it in 2012. I'd love to see the illegal advocates get clobbered at the ballot box.

 

[fskimospy]

With the vast majority of laws, that's not true at all. Very few laws require a showing of intent.

I should have been more clear. The vast majority of laws with significant penalties, and criminal violations in particular as I mentioned generally require intent. You don't need mens rea for blowing a stop sign.

 

[fskimospy]

I'm disappointed that you had to resort to labeling your opponents xenophobes but at least you were honest that you don't really want any limits on immigration. And it's really the only position that makes sense if you support this kind of bill. It inherently undermines immigration control.

Next question, do you really think that anything other than unbridled chaos would result from open immigration? Do you think that the US government could magically provide hundreds of millions of new third worlders with the same benefits people get now?

Why would open immigration require giving hundreds of millions of new third worlders the same benefits people get now?

Once again, study after study shows that people are not immigrating to the US for our welfare state. They immigrate here to work.

 

[Jaskalas]

Take away all hand outs to illegals including education, medical care, food stamps, welfare. Take away the ability of anchor babies. Nail every company to the wall who hires illegals. Basically take away every reason they come here illegally To begin with. It's called self deportation and it will save us billions. Then once they are back home, they can apply just like everyone else is supposed to.

I doubt people are afraid to answer. It's really easy to deal with the illegals that are here but there isn't willpower on either side of the political spectrum. If you cut off people's ability to earn wages and get benefits, they will leave on their own. If we were to really start punishing people and businesses who employed illegals harshly, they would stop doing it. Republicans don't want to do this because they like cheap labor and don't like punishing businesses. Democrats think it's mean and unfair.

Very interesting answer.

So the theory is that, if treated badly, this underclass will pack up and go home. Is that even an option for them? How do they get home?, what do they do about friends / family already here?

The assumption is that they would leave the United States, but many simply have children here. Those children are legal US citizens who give legal reason for their parents to be here. You would have to retroactively remove citizen status and treat this class of people badly.

Will your own countrymen allow this to happen? Democrats voting to abuse illegals? Oh, do you think you can do this without their support, how about in the state of California? The DNC chair recently said that the GOP wants to criminalize being an illegal. That's the sort of person you'd have to work with. Good luck with that.

So look at this realistically, if you have to go through the Dems, just how DO you force 10s of millions of people into abuse to entice them to leave? Why would they go home when they can simply stay in the United States and riot for basic human rights and equal treatment under law? They'll have half the nation fighting for them.

You need to face the facts, they're not leaving.

 

[Portly Penguin]

Conservatives, sooner or later you are just going to have to get used to the idea that people with different color skin than you ARE in fact human and will be treated as such. If you don't like it, maybe you should just get out and let us civilized people enjoy our country in peace.

 

[Linflas]

Conservatives, sooner or later you are just going to have to get used to the idea that people with different color skin than you ARE in fact human and will be treated as such. If you don't like it, maybe you should just get out and let us civilized people enjoy our country in peace.

Progressives sooner or later you are just going to have to get used to the idea that you won't be able to reduce every issue to race. Do you really think it would be any different if 12 million lily white Canadians swarmed over the border illegally into the country demanding social services?

 

[ichy]

Conservatives, sooner or later you are just going to have to get used to the idea that people with different color skin than you ARE in fact human and will be treated as such. If you don't like it, maybe you should just get out and let us civilized people enjoy our country in peace.

Your argument is laughably intellectually bankrupt. The issue is immigration status, not skin color. Despicable race-baiting like yours is what allows conservatives to paint all liberals as a bunch of naive, out of touch with reality buffoons.

 

[Portly Penguin]

Do you really think it would be any different if 12 million lily white Canadians swarmed over the border illegally into the country demanding social services?

Yes.

Thousands of people immigrate illegally from Canada every year, but you don't hear a peep about it. Conservatives love complaining about all the drugs coming across the Mexican border, yet conveniently ignore the massive amount of meth, ecstacy, and marijuana being illegally transported over the U.S.-Canada border.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Yes.

Thousands of people immigrate illegally from Canada every year, but you don't hear a peep about it. Conservatives love complaining about all the drugs coming across the Mexican border, yet conveniently ignore the massive amount of meth, ecstacy, and marijuana being illegally transported over the U.S.-Canada border.

Thousands? Wow. Is that 2000, 5000, 10000 ? How many are part of human trafficking business funding vast criminal empires that have turned canada into a failed narco-state?


Most meth comes from south west everyone knows this.

Who cares about MJ we grow most of it within our borders.

Do you have any facts about the massive amount of ecstasy?

How much of this drug importation business from canada is funding vast criminal empires that have turned canada into a failed narco-state?

Do you have any facts at all to present to us this huge Canadian border concern?

 

[Infohawk]

Very interesting answer.

So the theory is that, if treated badly, this underclass will pack up and go home. Is that even an option for them? How do they get home?, what do they do about friends / family already here?

The assumption is that they would leave the United States, but many simply have children here. Those children are legal US citizens who give legal reason for their parents to be here. You would have to retroactively remove citizen status and treat this class of people badly.

Will your own countrymen allow this to happen? Democrats voting to abuse illegals? Oh, do you think you can do this without their support, how about in the state of California? The DNC chair recently said that the GOP wants to criminalize being an illegal. That's the sort of person you'd have to work with. Good luck with that.

So look at this realistically, if you have to go through the Dems, just how DO you force 10s of millions of people into abuse to entice them to leave? Why would they go home when they can simply stay in the United States and riot for basic human rights and equal treatment under law? They'll have half the nation fighting for them.

You need to face the facts, they're not leaving.

I've already said there's not the political willpower to do what is necessary so i don't need you repeating that. But it's still possible. All the reasons you gave for them staying here were also reasons for them staying in their country of origin. (The lame cost of travel excuse for example.) Yet they overcame those problems. If things get bad, they will leave. All you're saying is you don't want them to leave. That has nothing to do with whether it's possible to get rid of them. Now that I answered your question why don't you answer the questions I posed in my original post? Thanks.

 

[Infohawk]

Why would open immigration require giving hundreds of millions of new third worlders the same benefits people get now?

Once again, study after study shows that people are not immigrating to the US for our welfare state. They immigrate here to work.

How many people do you think would immigrate to this country if we made it legal for anyone and everyone to come here? It would be hundreds of millions at least. Or are you saying you wouldn't give the new immigrants the same benefits? (I doubt that because you are advocating for this legislation.)

 

[fskimospy]

Please answer the questions in a straightforward manner. How many people do you think would immigrate to this country if we made it legal for anyone and everyone to come here? It would be hundreds of millions at least. Or are you saying you wouldn't give the new immigrants the same benefits? (I doubt that because you are advocating for this legislation.)

Of course I wouldn't give new immigrants the same benefits. (this legislation doesn't do that either) I also didn't say we should make it legal for anyone and everyone to come here, I said we should make it legal for anyone who works to come here. I would advocate for massively expanding and streamlining work visas, things like that.

The US currently has some of the most restrictive and byzantine immigration laws in the world. My roommate from the UK is as productive and law abiding as they get, and he is constantly having to jump through hoops just so he can continue to productively work here. If people had a reasonable path where they could do the same work they are doing now, but do so without fear of arrest and deportation, they would do it.

 

[Linflas]

Yes.

Thousands of people immigrate illegally from Canada every year, but you don't hear a peep about it. Conservatives love complaining about all the drugs coming across the Mexican border, yet conveniently ignore the massive amount of meth, ecstacy, and marijuana being illegally transported over the U.S.-Canada border.

LMAO thousands as opposed to millions.

From DHS:

Country of Birth of the Unauthorized Immigrant Population: January 2009 and 2000
Estimated population
in January Percent of total
Percent
change
Average annual
change
Country of birth 2009 2000 2009 2000 2000 to 2009 2000 to 2009
All countries . . . . . . . 10,750,000 8,460,000 100 100 27 250,000
Mexico . . . . . . . . . . . . 6,650,000 4,680,000 62 55 42 220,000
El Salvador . . . . . . . . . 530,000 430,000 5 5 25 10,000
Guatemala . . . . . . . . . . 480,000 290,000 4 3 65 20,000
Honduras. . . . . . . . . . . 320,000 160,000 3 2 95 20,000
Philippines . . . . . . . . . . 270,000 200,000 2 2 33 10,000
India . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 200,000 120,000 2 1 64 10,000
Korea . . . . . . . . . . . . . 200,000 180,000 2 2 14 —-
Ecuador . . . . . . . . . . . . 170,000 110,000 2 1 55 10,000
Brazil . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 150,000 100,000 1 1 49 10,000
China . . . . . . . . . . . . . 120,000 190,000 1 2 -37 (10,000)
Other countries . . . . . . 1,650,000 2,000,000 15 24 -17 (40,000)

 

[Kadarin]

My solution would be to find the people who propose and implement these ridiculous ideas and shoot them in the face. If only that were legal...

 

[Infohawk]

Of course I wouldn't give new immigrants the same benefits. (this legislation doesn't do that either) I also didn't say we should make it legal for anyone and everyone to come here, I said we should make it legal for anyone who works to come here. I would advocate for massively expanding and streamlining work visas, things like that.

The US currently has some of the most restrictive and byzantine immigration laws in the world. My roommate from the UK is as productive and law abiding as they get, and he is constantly having to jump through hoops just so he can continue to productively work here. If people had a reasonable path where they could do the same work they are doing now, but do so without fear of arrest and deportation, they would do it.

I'm not sure why you think your "come here to work" idea is that important. As you said, they already come here to work. Most illegals here do work. Why do you think that would be an important limit?

Can you expand on which benefits you WOULDN'T give these new immigrants? If you're already giving them free money for higher education I don't see why you would not want to give them medicare, etc.

I don't really find your UK roommate a useful story. Immigration between first world countries is a whole different ballgame because the migrants are usually already at a similar level of education and wealth and have had about the same amount of money invested in them by their country or origin. Heck, I'd imagine most people would be fine with a system that allowed Americans to work in Britain and Brits to work in America. But many people would scream racism and ask why the same thing couldn't be done with Mexico with the answer being that very few Americans want to go to Mexico.

 

[fskimospy]

I'm not sure why you think your "come here to work" idea is that important. As you said, they already come here to work. Most illegals here do work. Why do you think that would be an important limit?

Can you expand on which benefits you WOULDN'T give these new immigrants? If you're already giving them free money for higher education I don't see why you would not want to give them medicare, etc.

I don't really find your UK roommate a useful story. Immigration between first world countries is a whole different ballgame because the migrants are usually already at a similar level of education and wealth and have had about the same amount of money invested in them by their country or origin. Heck, I'd imagine most people would be fine with a system that allowed Americans to work in Britain and Brits to work in America. But many people would scream racism and ask why the same thing couldn't be done with Mexico with the answer being that very few Americans want to go to Mexico.

Because people who are working are contributing to our society.

I'm not going to give you a laundry list of what benefits I would give them. Once again, this bill does not give illegal immigrants free money for higher education. It gives children who had no choice in the course of action that led them to live here and have already been here for a number of years money. I'm very okay with that.

You create residency and work history requirements for various benefits, depending on how the math works out. It's really not that big a deal. I'm of the opinion that the US needs as many people who are willing to bust their ass as possible. Legal avenues to accomplish this are vastly preferable to what we have going on now.