California power crisis

[kranky]

From what I've been reading, it sounds very serious. Utilities are paying $1400 for a megawatt hour on the spot market vs. $34 last year, and they are $8 billion in the hole this year. Apparently these costs cannot be passed on to customers.

Today I read that PG&E and Edison will have to lay off thousands of workers to reduce costs. The Energy Secretary is concerned that out-of-state electricity generators may refuse to sell more power to California because of concerns they won't be paid.

And with the threat of blackouts hanging over their heads, because they can't get enough electricity, I'm wondering why this isn't getting more attention.

 

[vi edit]

Any idea what is causing this problem? Is it a shortage of resources such as coal and natural gas? Is the demand for energy exceeding the supply?

Or is it just politics and something done through management?

 

[Shuxclams]

Its got my attention. Here is another area where deregulation has gone bad. The power companies have to compete but nobody is allowed to pass the cost's on. Not that I want the cost to be passed onto me... but there had to be some way of keeping costs down and having compitition, how to do that I dunno, all I know is we are looking at rolling blackouts if it doesnt change.



SHUX

 

[Tripleshot]

Who is setting the prices? PG&E owns our power and has warned us they are going to raise our rates for California's problems.Fvck that!:|

This is out of control price gouging at its ugliest and the public should stand up to it. Something is damn wrong here.

 

[Shuxclams]

vi, it is part of the deregulation bill that was passed here not to long ago, part of the problem is power generators have been shut down for "repairs". The Feds are looking into the issues. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/2000/20001214/lo/270081_3.html


<< &quot;Three years ago, state lawmakers and the California Public Utilities Commission deregulated the generation of electricity. Edison was ordered to sell the generating plants that we owned in the Los Angeles basin. Today, those generating plants are owned by independent power companies who are selling power for prices that are indefensible.&quot; >>




<< The power crunch is being blamed partly on the fact that several generating plants are off-line, and partly because the price of electricity has risen &quot;astronomically,&quot; according to California Senator Dianne Feinstein and Governor Gray Davis. >>





SHUX

 

[Michael]

It is a combination of a bunch of things. The anti-growth activists have kept new plants from being built for a while. The deregulation initiative added risk to the building of plants. Oil prices have skyrocketed.

I blame it on the Democrats <grin>.

Michael

 

[denali]

As I understand it the problem is more demand than supply. No new power generation plants have been built in CA in over 10 years and with everyone using more computer and other electronic devices demand shot up. CA is also deregulating the power industry but the way they went about it was wrong.

 

[vi edit]

Sounds like one big cluster fsck to me. I read the article that Shux posted, and along with what you guys have said, there were A LOT of bad decisions made over the last couple years over there in CA.

Sounds like it's time to put up a couple nuclear power plants

 

[Shuxclams]

<< The anti-growth activists have kept new plants from being built for a while >>

Link or proof.... and what a tard for blaming one side or the other considering the R's had control of the state house up until 96' thats a bunch of malarky.




SHUX

 

[Michael]

Shux - I'm not going to spend my afternoon tracking down links. I can give you a perfect example. They wanted to build a small plant in my town and it was voted down by the anti-growth crowd (the same ones that got Measure D passed in Alamemda County).

They've been trying to build another power plant in Coyote Valley just south of San Jose but the City has been blocking them. More anti-growth at work.

You've been a huge jerk in most of the political discussions. It must come from failing to note simple things like the <grin> after my statement which obviously means I'm being tongue-in-cheek about the Democrats being the people to blame.

For the most part, the politicians are trying to demonize the business people. Supply and demand is pushing the price up. They are no profits being made that are not justified. In the end, the high profits will spur the building of more power plants.

Michael

 

[Valnir]

This was actually talked about on the O'Reilly factor a couple weeks ago.

The problem is Cali hasn't built a new power plant in like 10 years, thanx to the tree huggers blocking all attempts to do so.

 

[fdiskboy]

Jeesh, shux. Someone trys to contribute to a factual discussion and you again resort to personal attacks.

How unlike you.


ROFL.

 

[Shuxclams]

Sorry Michael.


As for O'Rielly, what the hell does he know? Complaining that no new power plants have been built in 10 years isn't right since we all voted for the deregulation which made the power companies &quot;have to sell&quot; perfectly fine generators and now the companies are producing power at a rate which SCE or PG&amp;E cannot compete with. Isn't that the free market plan we wanted? A sfor the &quot;tree huggers&quot; and &quot;anti-progress&quot; groups you elude to I have no knowledge about, pleasanton is a nice place isn't it? Alemeda wouldnt be hurt by another power plant and I know nothing of coyote valley, so I can't say what I think about those issues unless you have a link. I do know that lax regulations on pollutants in the San Jose valley area during the 80-90's did some good harm to the water supply and I would suspect that folks are a little more cautious these days about polloution.




SHUX

 

[kranky]

I did a little surfing, and there seems to be a feeling there are different factors which came together to cause this. During a period where the state population rose 35%, their generating capacity rose only 2%. Lack of new plants, older plants shutting down for maintenance, higher natural gas usage, etc., all were responsible.

I saw where another CA utility was ordered to cap the cost for residential users who don't exceed a certain amount of electricity use.

What do they propose to do? Is this something they can study for months, or does something have to be done right now?

 

[AlphaIVT]

we're suppose to turn our christmas lights on at 7:30 pm, but most of these jackasses here and around the city turn them on at 5:30, when it gets dark enough for lights.

 

[Shuxclams]

What about my 5 puters that are on 24/7? I don't put the lights on until 8PM myself and most all the lights in the house are off except where puters are and in the den where TV is.







SHUX

 

[Windogg]

NYC may be hitting the same wall soon. Each tower of the World Trade Center uses about 60 Megawatts pf power. A proposed server farm that will enter service in the Bronx will need 180 Megawatts of power. There are several more on the drawing boards too.

Windogg

 

[Michael]

Shux - I read &quot;The Pleasanton Weekly&quot; every week, and it has most of the local news. Here's a link: Blocking a Good Solution. In the last couple of months, the power company proposed putting two small generating plants into Pleasanton. They basically would use converted jet engines burning natural gas. The Anti-Growth (our new Mayor is big time anti-growth) and the NIMBY people stopped the plants.

The plants could have been built quickly and are exactly what we need right now - quick power sources. They were stopped because of noise (we have two major highways 680 and 580 that run through town and they make more noise than the plants would have) and because the smoke stacks would look &quot;too ugly&quot; (some of the most expensive houses in our town are built right next to an active quarry for crying out loud).

The problem is being magnified by deregulation, but it is not cuased by it. It is cuased by a lack of supply and unrealistic calls for conservation (does anyone expect people to not have Xmas lights during the Holiday season?).

If I feel up to it, I will write something longer about the politics behind the blocking of power plants. I was a little tongue-in-cheek about blaming the Democrats, both the major politcal parties in California support the environmentalists, but the Democrats are very supportive and have been blocking the building of power plants for years.

This is the second time I've lived in CA (I lived in Hermosa Beach <which has a power plant right next to the ocean> a few years ago). It is obvious from the choking traffic that lack of planning runs deep.

Michael

ps - I ride the ACE train into work as much as I can. One less car on the road. I'm well trained in using public transportation after growing up in Montreal (great Metro system) and working in NYC for a few years (buessed in from NJ and subwayed in the city).

 

[Raspewtin]

ever since de-regulation in San Diego, this has been a big issue with us since we've been paying rediculous rates. The Fed. govt said all Western states have to sell to CA if the shortage becomes urgent. I never thought I'd say this, but deregulation sucks, and the government is doing a better job with electricity than the private sector, at least in San Diego.

 

[Shuxclams]

Michael,
I didn't anything related to &quot;anti-growth&quot; but the article is well written. I think that there has to be a reasonable answer for both sides. I know thats kinda unexciting and plain but its true. I have been out in the deep desert and been working on commercials at these Solar plants, neat stuff BTW, and the Wind Farms, these are ugly and large contraptions but do a good job of providing energy. Isnt there a wind farm east of livermore off the 580? Anyway more to the point is that if you have Quarries in town why not put the &quot;noisy&quot; &quot;polluting&quot; whatever powerplants there if estestics the City Council is concerned with. Sounds less like tree huggers and more like &quot;not here you don't&quot; types to me.





SHUX

 

[ViRGE]

I'm with Raspewtin, even us Oregonians are paying for California's mistakes. We're selling them comparitively cheap power that we need at times, meaning that we've had to go stage 2 before, simply because Cali wanted more power. This is to everyone that's responsible for our troubles: bite me!

 

[Shuxclams]

OBTW, its like the City of Malibu who didn't want to have to build an expensive and potentally smelly sewage treatment plant for themselves, so now they have a big problem with Beach Closures due to high levels of human waste polluting Surf rider beach, which just so happens to be the worlds most famous beach and Malibu's tourist bread and butter. So now they are &quot;considering&quot; Building it, since it is costing them a great deal in revenue and bad PR.




SHUX

 

[Michael]

Shux - Yep, there is a &quot;wind farm&quot; off of 580 east of Livermore.

Tom Pico, the Mayor, is very anti-growth. The link doesn't get into it, but I've been here a year and everything I've read or heard from him has been anti-growth.

I agree that the NIMBY element is blocking the power plants as well. The NIMBY group is headed by environmentalists (I went to one of the meetings).

I should point out that Pleasanton is a Republican &quot;stronghold&quot; in the Bay Area and politics are Conservative - i.e. anti-change.

Michael

 

[xaigi]

Its politics; when I left, some turds in the office of somethingoranother were not letting anybody but thier buddies get licences to run power plants. Hence part of the problem.

My personal suggestion is to get a set of solar panels and pop 'em on your roof. They wont completely replace normal power, but they will take a big bite out of your bill. Its what I would have done if I had stayed in CA. When I left, I was paying $150 per month in Bakersfield, CA; some of my friends in Fresno were payng as much as $500. Solar panels will cost you about 2 months of Fresno power and will last longer than your computer.

 

[WoundedWallet]

I saw a big ad today from Edison talking about the problem.

The funny part to me was that Edison was complaining about the deregulation. Asking it to be revised.

Since I don't know much about the subject I'm a little confused. How did Edison manage to supply power to us before the deregulation? Were they producing some and buying the rest for a set rate?

At the rate the rates are rising, it will soon make sense to look at alternative power sources. Either that or we could build a couple nuclear plants on Michael's backyard since he likes them so much. <grin>