California man using "corporations are people" argument to challenge HOV lane ticket

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lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
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This is why this case will be thrown out. It is a stupid case that completely misses the definitin of corporate "personhood" is. Even if you accepted the stupid basis for the case, he was carrying papers around and papers are not a corporation.

Corporaions have been "people" under law for pretty much since they were invented. For all the outcry about spending on the elections, there is no evidence that it made a difference last election and there are plenty of countries that do not limit corporate spending on elections and they also have no problems.

Michael

While I understand the reasons corporate personhood was granted.

I don't think it goes unnoticed how easy it's been for corps and many other various lobby to entangle themselves in government to influence policy to their direct benefit.

I'm for options of eliminated that. Sure the case is going no where but it's already achieved its purpose.

Outlaw all lobby restrict political contributions to individual people, problem solved.

Other countries may not have a problem but America does.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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Unions aren't people either, it is time to end people hood for non-people. People are individuals not groups and and not corporations.

Fine with me. That would effectively end lots of things you probably value, like corporate taxes, liability of existing corporate debt, most class action lawsuits, limited legal liability of shareholders, and the need to liquidate companies on the death of the proprietor or any of the partners. The end of corporate taxes by itself would make your stupid idea almost worthwhile.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
Fine with me. That would effectively end lots of things you probably value, like corporate taxes, liability of existing corporate debt, most class action lawsuits, limited legal liability of shareholders, and the need to liquidate companies on the death of the proprietor or any of the partners. The end of corporate taxes by itself would make your stupid idea almost worthwhile.

It wouldn't end corporate taxes. maybe just change the avenue of assessment. there are plenty of ways to grant similar provisions to person hood without actually granting corporations constitutional rights of people.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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It wouldn't end corporate taxes. maybe just change the avenue of assessment. there are plenty of ways to grant similar provisions to person hood without actually granting corporations constitutional rights of people.


Some rights are already limited to corporations due to the nature of their "personhood," such as self-incrimination. Which other constitutional rights of people do you feel should be withheld from corporations? Protection from unreasonable search and seizure, due process, imminent domain, right of assembly? Feel free to go through the Bill of Rights to select which ones you think should apply.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
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Fine with me. That would effectively end lots of things you probably value, like corporate taxes, liability of existing corporate debt, most class action lawsuits, limited legal liability of shareholders, and the need to liquidate companies on the death of the proprietor or any of the partners. The end of corporate taxes by itself would make your stupid idea almost worthwhile.
Nonsense. None of those things require accepting the fiction that corporations are people.


Some rights are already limited to corporations due to the nature of their "personhood," such as self-incrimination. Which other constitutional rights of people do you feel should be withheld from corporations? Protection from unreasonable search and seizure, due process, imminent domain, right of assembly? Feel free to go through the Bill of Rights to select which ones you think should apply.
There is no reason corporations and other organizations should have any Constitutional rights whatsoever. The premise of the Constitution, and specifically the Bill of Rights, is that the People's rights are innate, and cannot be infringed by the state. Corporations are a creation of the state, and therefore have no innate rights. Rather, they have whatever "rights" are expressly granted to them by the state. I put "rights" in quotes because they aren't really rights at all, but rather the privileges and constraints agreed to by the populace as a condition for formally recognizing the organization as a corporation, union, etc.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
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Some rights are already limited to corporations due to the nature of their "personhood," such as self-incrimination. Which other constitutional rights of people do you feel should be withheld from corporations? Protection from unreasonable search and seizure, due process, imminent domain, right of assembly? Feel free to go through the Bill of Rights to select which ones you think should apply.

I think that no rights of an individual should apply to a corporation.

Feel free to go through the bill of rights and list what rights your think non people should have.

There are other ways we could handle how corporations are treated within the law. Doesnt mean we need to grant them person hood, even limited person hood.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
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There is no reason corporations and other organizations should have any Constitutional rights whatsoever. The premise of the Constitution, and specifically the Bill of Rights, is that the People's rights are innate, and cannot be infringed by the state. Corporations are a creation of the state, and therefore have no innate rights. Rather, they have whatever "rights" are expressly granted to them by the state. I put "rights" in quotes because they aren't really rights at all, but rather the privileges and constraints agreed to by the populace as a condition for formally recognizing the organization as a corporation, union, etc.

Again, sounds good to me. Time to start quartering troops in the IBM headquarters buildings, and using imminent domain to seize the assets of the UAW. No rights for you!
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
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Again, sounds good to me. Time to start quartering troops in the IBM headquarters buildings, and using imminent domain to seize the assets of the UAW. No rights for you!
Don't be a troll. We can grant organizations the exact same protections by law, if we so choose ... and given the deep pockets of corps, there is no doubt that is exactly what Congress would do in most cases. It only means those organizations' rights would not be Constitutional rights, and can therefore be more readily revised and altered as appropriate to meet changing needs, address abuse, etc.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
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Don't be a troll. We can grant organizations the exact same protections by law, if we so choose ... and given the deep pockets of corps, there is no doubt that is exactly what Congress would do in most cases. It only means those organizations' rights would not be Constitutional rights, and can therefore be more readily revised and altered as appropriate to meet changing needs, address abuse, etc.

You're going through a lot of twisted logic and hoop jumping just to get around one court decision you don't like. I'm quite baffled why you think doing away with the very long-standing and very useful legal fiction of corporate personhood is worth the mental contortions you're engaging in. Citizens United won't end the world anymore than Roe v. Wade did for the conservative right. Both were correct decisions made on a reasonable interpretation of the Constitution given the particular topic at hand wasn't directly addressed.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
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You're going through a lot of twisted logic and hoop jumping just to get around one court decision you don't like. I'm quite baffled why you think doing away with the very long-standing and very useful legal fiction of corporate personhood is worth the mental contortions you're engaging in. Citizens United won't end the world anymore than Roe v. Wade did for the conservative right. Both were correct decisions made on a reasonable interpretation of the Constitution given the particular topic at hand wasn't directly addressed.
First, you'll find I've been railing against the "corporations are people too" fiction for years here, long before Citizens United was even on the horizon. That ruling coupled with the equally odious decision that bribery (i.e., money) is protected speech are the single greatest reason our government today is so corrupted. Special interests with deep pockets have perverted our system to serve them rather than We, the People. A capitalist democracy works best when there is a healthy balance and meaningful constraints, emphasizing the interests of the citizenry while still presenting a robust business environment. We lost that balance long ago.

Second, I've offered no twisted logic at all. In fact, I don't see how the basic foundation I gave is even arguable, let alone controversial. The Constitution was written for We, the People ... not we, the corporations. The Bill of Rights starts with the premise that certain rights are innate to the People (i.e., humans), that they are inalienable, and that the state may not infringe those rights. Corporations and other such organizations aren't covered in the Constitution. Given that their very existence is defined by law, it follows logically that their privileges and constraints are also defined by law, NOT by the Constitution. It was a notably corrupt Supreme Court that ruled otherwise so many years ago. That fiction has been harming Americans ever since.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
You're going through a lot of twisted logic and hoop jumping just to get around one court decision you don't like. I'm quite baffled why you think doing away with the very long-standing and very useful legal fiction of corporate personhood is worth the mental contortions you're engaging in. Citizens United won't end the world anymore than Roe v. Wade did for the conservative right. Both were correct decisions made on a reasonable interpretation of the Constitution given the particular topic at hand wasn't directly addressed.

I think getting rid of lobby influence in our government is worth the mental contortions, of course there is other ways to get rid of lobby but given corporations have constitutional protection it makes it hard.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
I think getting rid of lobby influence in our government is worth the mental contortions, of course there is other ways to get rid of lobby but given corporations have constitutional protection it makes it hard.
Exactly. I sincerely doubt it was our Founding Fathers' intent to legalize corporate bribery, yet that is what we have today. As long as these special interests (not all are corps) can hide behind the First Amendment, our hands are tied. If we discarded the fiction that organizations are people, we could then legislatively restrict their political activities.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
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HOV lanes are unconstitutional. How about equal treatment under the law. Put some crash dummies in the car.
 

Ken g6

Programming Moderator, Elite Member
Moderator
Dec 11, 1999
16,689
4,652
75
If he wins this one, he should attempt to register his corporation to vote!
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
7,251
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That's a pretty hefty ticket I must say. They are really serious about HOV lanes down here too. If you really need to drive in the HOV, pick up two people..
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
106
So corporations aren't people?

You must be incapable of higher level intelectual thought. Corporations can be "people" in certain legal senses and still not qualify for HOV lane purposes. Plus, he was carrying papers around, not a person, even if you tried the stupid argument of them being "people", it still would not apply. So the judge doesn't even need to address the stupid link he is trying to make and still throw the case out.

Almost very commercial activity we do is governed by legal fictions.

The law already restricts donations to candidates from corporation. That was not overturned. All that was made clear was that you cannot stifle the voices of corporations during elections - protecting political speech. Personally, I like free speech.

Michael
 
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