California assisted suicide/right to die

bradly1101

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May 5, 2013
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www.bradlygsmith.org
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/a580...governor-signs-hard-won-right-die-legislation

Gov. Jerry Brown signed legislation Monday allowing terminally ill people in the nation's most populous state to take their own lives, saying the emotionally charged bill forced him to consider "what I would want in the face of my own death."
The bill includes requirements that patients be physically capable of taking the medication themselves, that two doctors approve it, that the patients submit several written requests and that there be two witnesses, one of whom is not a family member.
At least two dozen states introduced right-to-die legislation this year, though the measures stalled elsewhere. Doctors in Oregon, Washington, Vermont and Montana already can prescribe life-ending drugs.
We had a thread about having this 'right' a while ago. I, for one, feel relieved and a little more secure that if I am suffering and terminal I won't have to endure the worst of it.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
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Way too many limitations, people with conditions like Huntington's disease would be excluded from this bill, as would terminally ill children who wish to end their life.
 

bradly1101

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May 5, 2013
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www.bradlygsmith.org
Way too many limitations, people with conditions like Huntington's disease would be excluded from this bill, as would terminally ill children who wish to end their life.

If people have a "thinking-changing" condition I guess it's hard to draw the line where this would be a conscious decision or not.
 

shira

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Jan 12, 2005
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My own issue with assisted suicide laws is well described by Eugene Volokh:

2. But say the government says that it has a compelling government interest in preventing people from being pressured into giving up their lives, and that a total ban on assisted suicide is the least restrictive means of preventing such pressure. The unfortunate fact, the government argues, is that assisted suicide can often be in the interest of the dying person’s relatives. A person’s terminal illness can take a tremendous emotional toll on his loved ones, who have the grief of watching their relative die added to the inevitable grief that would follow his death. It can take up a lot of their time. It can take up their money, if they are paying for the person’s care (which is especially common for spouses). And even if the dying person is paying for his health care out of his own pocket, this expense depletes the estate that the person will leave to his relatives.

Of course, for many relatives all this will be outweighed by the value of having the dying person around as long as possible, even if the dying person is incapacitated or even unable to communicate. But it’s quite clear that some fraction of the relatives — and even if it’s a small fraction, it can number in the millions — would prefer that the dying person die quickly and cheaply. And this is especially so given the human capacity to rationalize: People who find that a relative’s assisted suicide will be in their interests can quickly persuade themselves that it would be in the relative’s interest, too.

Once assisted suicide stops being a crime and becomes a choice, some family members may start pressuring their dying relatives to commit assisted suicide; and this pressure is made easier by the fact that for many dying people, the constant support and affection of their relatives — and the assurance that their relatives want them to live as long as possible — is their only reason to keep living. Pressuring a healthy person to commit suicide is very hard, and usually requires physical coercion, since healthy people generally have a lot to live for. Pressuring a dying person can be much easier, especially if the family can put on a relatively united front.

Sometimes the pressure can be overt: nagging the dying person, telling him how selfish he is for not choosing assisted suicide, and threatening to cut off contact if he doesn’t make plans for committing suicide some time in the near future. Presumably only the cruelest people will do this, but there are some such. But it can also be subtler: suggesting assisted suicide as a means of avoiding pain or indignity, occasionally talking about how hard a lingering death can be on the family (especially on, say, young grandchildren, rather than the complainer himself), hinting about the financial problems that the disease is causing the family, and becoming more and more reluctant to spend time with the dying person.

What’s worse, this subtle pressure can happen even while the relatives are denying to themselves that they actually want the person to die. Even some otherwise decent people, suffering from the strain of a loved one’s terminal illness, can find themselves doing this, especially if they are resentful of what they start to see as the dying person’s selfishness.


If assisted suicide were not a legal option, the dying person might have continued living, and might even have enjoyed his family’s affections: When people know that they have no choice but to endure emotional or financial problems, such as those caused by a relative’s death, they often do the best they can. But once assisted suicide becomes just another choice, those same families might subtly or overtly threaten to withdraw their affections, and the ill person may find life no longer worth living.

One possible response is that there can always be safeguards that verify that the choice to commit assisted suicide is really voluntary and without pressure. But what would the safeguards be? Medical examinations are unhelpful: Doctors can tell whether a person is terminally ill or in serious pain, but not whether his family is nagging him into killing himself. Examinations by psychiatrists and social workers may also not work: Presumably if a person has decided on assisted suicide, even as a result of family pressure, he won’t frustrate this plan by admitting everything to the psychiatrist.

Moreover, it’s not even clear exactly what the psychiatrist would be looking for. The line between impermissible pressure and mere insensitivity, nagging, selfishness, frustration, despair, or grief is very hard to draw. Maybe a psychiatrist may catch the cases where the family overtly said “Promise to commit assisted suicide within a month, or else we will just completely stop talking to you,” but even this is hard to do, and subtler pressure may be even harder to clearly identify.

Finally, outlawing the pressure is, for a similar reason, just not an option. It’s hard to see how one can criminalize withholding one’s affection, berating a dying person for his perceived selfishness, or trying to persuade someone (even for the most selfish of reasons) to exercise their constitutional right. Perhaps there might be less restrictive means, the government would argue, of preventing undue pressure from doctors or from health-care funders, because that pressure is more likely to manifest itself in tangible demands (though maybe not). But there aren’t any means, short of a total ban on assisted suicide, for effectively preventing family members’ subtle psychological and emotional pressure that would lead people who would rather live (if assisted suicide weren’t an option) into choosing death.

What are courts to make of that argument? Is there a compelling interest in preventing such emotionally or psychologically pressured choices (even if not forcibly coerced choices) in favor of suicide? Does this interest, and the government’s theory about how there are no less restrictive means of serving the interest, justify the intrusion on religious objectors’ religious freedom (assuming, again, that we’re in a state that protects the presumptive freedom to act according to one’s religion, unless the government’s banning the action is the least restrictive means of serving a compelling government interest)?

A complicated question, which I expect that courts might well be turning to soon, especially given the extra publicity and credibility given to religious objection claims by recent cases such as Hobby Lobby.

In the best of all worlds, where the reality of assisted suicide was that it was used solely to reduce the illness-induced suffering of the terminally ill, and where all humans acted with complete selflessness toward their suffering loved ones, I would be 100% for such laws.

But the actual and sad reality is that - as Volokh argues - many, many relatives of the terminally ill - forced to share and bear the psychological, physical, and financial burdens - would automatically rationalize that their love one's "hastened death" is "best for everyone," and that a loved one's choice to "go on living" is just "selfishness, plain and simple." It's even easy to imagine families growing to resent elderly relatives who are not terminally ill, but whose lives go on and on, requiring this doctor's visit or that assistance taking a shower. The subtle or not-so-subtle withdrawal of affection and attention by family members of the terminally ill who "refuse to die" or who die too slowly would become a sad, tragic, and all too common reality.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
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Next evolution of the bill will give police officers the authority to adhere and respect requests of citizens who do not wish to live any more.

Oh, yes, I most certainly "went there" ;)


Anyways, just an observation for the need of a lot of paperwork and a difficult process before the decision for one person to legally end the life of another.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
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But the actual and sad reality is that - as Volokh argues - many, many relatives of the terminally ill - forced to share and bear the psychological, physical, and financial burdens - would automatically rationalize that their love one's "hastened death" is "best for everyone," and that a loved one's choice to "go on living" is just "selfishness, plain and simple." It's even easy to imagine families growing to resent elderly relatives who are not terminally ill, but whose lives go on and on, requiring this doctor's visit or that assistance taking a shower. The subtle or not-so-subtle withdrawal of affection and attention by family members of the terminally ill who "refuse to die" or who die too slowly would become a sad, tragic, and all too common reality.

Actually, yeah, having a very elderly relative and knowing some of the thoughts of other relatives who take care of her, this most definitely is a very, very complicated topic.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
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If people have a "thinking-changing" condition I guess it's hard to draw the line where this would be a conscious decision or not.

Yea, I can understand that. With brain destroying diseases such as Huntington's it becomes difficult, especially when they get the advance stages and someone else has to administer the drug. It can seem like euthanasia rather than assisted suicide.
 

shira

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Jan 12, 2005
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A couple of cogent points from the comments to the article I linked to, above:

I would add that potential pressure from interested parties comes not only from family but from caregiving institutions. Some hospitals and health care systems are reimbursed by diagnosis rather than by services rendered, days in hospital, etc. These institutions may be motivated to cut corners in providing expensive care, especially when the prognosis is grim. One way to do this is by persuading a patient to commit suicide. The ethical justifications currently given by a number of medical ethicists for denying resources for futile care could easily be extended to justify the desirability of assisted suicide in cases in which the quality of life is poor, with little hope for improvement, especially if significant material resources are required to maintain either life or whatever quality it possesses.

and

Please consider the following specifics from the assisted suicide trenches:

By Oregon and Washington law not all family members are required to be contacted. A single heir is allowed to initiate and execute the lethal process without a witness, thus eviscerating intended safe guards. Everyone involved in the lethal process gets immediate immunity. A witness is not required to confirm the dose was self-administered so if they struggled and changed their mind who would ever know?

In addition these laws prohibit investigations or public inquiries leaving no recourse for surviving family members who were not contacted. Does that sound like good public policy to you? This is a very dangerous public policy that allows for the exploitation of elders and people with disabilities of all ages. However, it serves the health insurance corporations very well.

All of these loopholes are embodied in California’s ABX2-15. A veto is in good order.

Oregon and Washington should amend their initiative-sound-bite driven dangerous laws.

Also note how the promoters of assisted suicide cling to their verbally engineered polls that claim a majority is in favor. I polled thousands of Montanans one-on-one as I served 60 days at fair booths across the state. Once folks knew about the loopholes in all of the Oregon model bills, 95% were not for them. So much for their verbally engineered polls.

There were a few people (about 2%) that believed in the survival of the fittest who remained in favor of legalizing assisted suicide even after learning how these bills are written and can be administered to expand the scope of abuse. Their reasoning was that if one cannot control their family then their life should be cut short. 98% do not agree with that. Do you?

Assisted suicide laws are superficially wonderful things. Even those totally opposed to taking a life under any circumstances can understand the desire to find a way to end needless suffering. But is it possible to accomplish this noble goal while avoiding the horrible reality of the almost infinite dark facets of the human soul?
 

mizzou

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Jan 2, 2008
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I often wonder the reasoning why people all police when their loved ones say, "I'm going to kill myself."

It should be up for debate why, anyone, should get in their way? I'm sure most of the time it's just people blowing hot air trying to get attention. But if you really intend on killing yourself, why put other people at risk by trying to stop them?

Assisted suicide is a slippery slope though...it's going to be hard to determine consent when one person is extremely sick/ill
 
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cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
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I often wonder the reasoning why people all police when their loved ones say, "I'm going to kill myself."

Because sometimes it actually works in finding someone who has run off to commit suicide, before it's too late.
 

fskimospy

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Mar 10, 2006
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I often wonder the reasoning why people all police when their loved ones say, "I'm going to kill myself."

It should be up for debate why, anyone, should get in their way? I'm sure most of the time it's just people blowing hot air trying to get attention. But if you really intend on killing yourself, why put other people at risk by trying to stop them?

Assisted suicide is a slippery slope though...it's going to be hard to determine consent when one person is extremely sick/ill

Because suicidal actions are often transient. Often people who attempt suicide but do not succeed never do so again. That means if you head off an attempt you might be giving a loved one decades of additional life that they are happy to have.

Assisted suicide is something I'm totally in favor of. Why we can recognize the basic humanity of ending terrible suffering in a dog but not in our own species is beyond me.
 

echo4747

Golden Member
Jun 22, 2005
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Assisted suicide is something I'm totally in favor of. Why we can recognize the basic humanity of ending terrible suffering in a dog but not in our own species is beyond me.

i too am also in favor of assited suicide. Your post reminds of time about 30 yrs ago. I had a dog that was suffering and was agonizing whether to treat or euthanize him. I had an uncle that was a long time doctor and asked for his advice. All he said was "Don't treat him(the dog) like a human, treat him with kindness"
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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It's a fundamental right to determine the time and place of one's own demise. This bill has adequate safeguards to prevent rash decisions and undue pressure. I strongly support it.
 

desy

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Jan 13, 2000
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Yep watched two parents linger away with cancer, both would have chosen an assisted option
The millions of baby boomers are not going to put up with rules and regulation from exercising their free will. They will lobby and vote to get it done
 

WHAMPOM

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Feb 28, 2006
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When a person's life becomes a living Hell, why would we be sadistic enough to keep them living it?
 

shira

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Jan 12, 2005
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It's a fundamental right to determine the time and place of one's own demise. This bill has adequate safeguards to prevent rash decisions and undue pressure. I strongly support it.
What are the safeguards to prevent undue pressure?
 

shira

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Jan 12, 2005
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When a person's life becomes a living Hell, why would we be sadistic enough to keep them living it?
Your argument stresses the big benefit of assisted suicide laws.

But suppose that if your demented mother were dead, your own life would be a lot easier and you'd save a lot of money. And suppose your mother has a sizable estate that's slowly being drained away by the cost of her care. Do you think it's possible that you might push for "assisted suicide" even though your mother seems to actually be enjoying her life? And even if you personally would never feel this way, do you think it's possible that many, many others might?