Calif: Keep paying higher taxes or face deep, painful cuts in services

[Capt Caveman]

this is entitlement -> so what ...OTE] And look at how you ended-up, retard.

 

[senseamp]

We're talking about governments here, are you taking the position that the many of the brightest people have chosen to live in CA due to what the politicians in Sacromento are doing? We're not talking about the great environment in CA, or any other reason people may choose to settle in CA, the entire point of this thread is about the state government. And honestly, it's so fucked up there why are you comparing it favorably to a state which spends far less and gets arguably no worse results?

No worse results? OK, give me a name of a no worse than UC Berkeley Alabama state run university?

 

[IGBT]

Californians recently shot down a 18.00 dollar increase in DMV fees. It's become obvious to the most casual Californian voter that the more money you give the state legislature the worse the problem gets. Taxes need to be capped and department budgets need to be traded and the tax cap lowered every year. If the schools need more money let them start a across the board tuition. The California tax payer is maxed out.

 

[Jaskalas]

Being Governor of California should replace that old saying about being captain of the titanic.

 

[thegimp03]

CA state.

Federal is another matter - there it's more about size than whether to have deficits.

Democrats have a lot better record than Republicans - before the era of mega deficits started with Reagan, they had modest deficits.

During the 8 years of Clinton between Republican mega deficits, Clinton reduced the deficits every year until balanced, and then a small surplus.

Obama inherited an economic crisis needing stimulus debt, and plans to go to a balanced budget after the economy is better.

But Democrats aren't perfect there - just a lot better. Or less bad.

Regarding the California state budget, the article has a part discussing Jerry's attempt to extend the "temporary" increases in CA state income tax and sales taxes which have been in place since 2009. (I am sure they will be permanent, but that's a topic for another day).

I don't have exact deficit figures from 2009, as I only quickly ran a search and found two articles from the NY Times in 2009, but it seems to me that the increase in taxes from 2 years ago didn't help close the budget gap as it's the same now as it was then at -$26B. I did not try to see what the budget cuts were at that time. If we keep the same level state income tax and sales tax levels we've had for the past 2 years and don't cut spending, how is the CA state deficit going to be relieved?

 

[fskimospy]

Let me clue you idiots in on what the real problem in California is. It's the proposition system and the disparity between what is required to spend tax dollars and what is required to take in tax dollars.

Period.

 

[Red Dawn]

Regarding the California state budget, the article has a part discussing Jerry's attempt to extend the "temporary" increases in CA state income tax and sales taxes which have been in place since 2009. (I am sure they will be permanent, but that's a topic for another day).

I don't have exact deficit figures from 2009, as I only quickly ran a search and found two articles from the NY Times in 2009, but it seems to me that the increase in taxes from 2 years ago didn't help close the budget gap as it's the same now as it was then at -$26B. I did not try to see what the budget cuts were at that time. If we keep the same level state income tax and sales tax levels we've had for the past 2 years and don't cut spending, how is the CA state deficit going to be relieved?

Brown wanted to put the tax increases on the ballot and let the voters decide if they want to pay more to help balance the budget or deal with a even a bigger more painful cut in services. I think he knows that the voters won't agree to the tax increases but at least he's giving them a chance to decide before he takes an axes to a lot of the services Californians have come to expect and take for granted.

He's going to cut services one way of the other, it's up to the voters to determine how much and how painful they'll be.

 

[piasabird]

California should solve its own problems. Keep the midwest out of their solution and dont expect extra money from the Federal Government. They can always start rounding up Undocumented people and shipping them back to their country of origin. That would save money we are spending on them for social services. However, if California chooses to accept all the illegals, they they have to pay for them on their dime.

 

[Red Dawn]

California should solve its own problems. Keep the midwest out of their solution and dont expect extra money from the Federal Government. They can always start rounding up Undocumented people and shipping them back to their country of origin. That would save money we are spending on them for social services. However, if California chooses to accept all the illegals, they they have to pay for them on their dime.

WTF does the podunk Midwest have anything to do with the solution?

 

[ShawnD1]

http://money.cnn.com/2011/05/03/news/economy/california_budget/index.htm?iid=HLM

Gov Brown took office in Jan. Talks w/Repubs broke down.

If no tax hikes, aka "all-cuts" budget:
-CA schools lose $5B- That could mean that class sizes would rise above 20 kids in the early grades and kindergarten would be restricted to those who are age 5
so parents dont have a tax payer paid babysitter for 3 or 4yr old johhny

California sounds a lot like Canada. The school I attended before kindergarten was called "play school" and it was kids age 3-4.

 

[JeepinEd]

Brown wanted to put the tax increases on the ballot and let the voters decide if they want to pay more to help balance the budget or deal with a even a bigger more painful cut in services. I think he knows that the voters won't agree to the tax increases but at least he's giving them a chance to decide before he takes an axes to a lot of the services Californians have come to expect and take for granted.

He's going to cut services one way of the other, it's up to the voters to determine how much and how painful they'll be.

He is going to cut services for everyone, but ensure that the unions get all their money. Brown was elected by the public unions and is here to serve the public unions. What happens if you but the tax increase to a vote? The unions will spend millions of dollars on "Think of the children" "People will die" "Your house will burn down" ads in an attempt to fool the people into voting themselves into higher taxes which will do nothing, but maintain the status quo.

 

[senseamp]

He's wants to put it up to the voters. Seems like a big enough decision for the voters to have a chance to weigh in. GOP wants to block the will of the people.

 

[glenn1]

No worse results? OK, give me a name of a no worse than UC Berkeley Alabama state run university?

Per capita spending is 25% higher in California, and one lousy university is the best you can come up with? Jeez, Alabama would be better off saving the money and using it to send students to Berkeley, and they would STILL be better off than the wreck that is CA government.

 

[Red Dawn]

He is going to cut services for everyone, but ensure that the unions get all their money. Brown was elected by the public unions and is here to serve the public unions. What happens if you but the tax increase to a vote? The unions will spend millions of dollars on "Think of the children" "People will die" "Your house will burn down" ads in an attempt to fool the people into voting themselves into higher taxes which will do nothing, but maintain the status quo.

By ensure do you mean he'll honor the contracts as he legally obliged too?

 

[shortylickens]

I suggest they kick out the illegals and give those jobs to tax-paying Americans and legal immigrants.

 

[JeepinEd]

By ensure do you mean he'll honor the contracts as he legally obliged too?

What contracts? The Prison Guard Union has been operating without a contract for the past 5 years. There are several other unions currently in contract negotiations and Brown plans to give them similar sweetheart deals.

Brown was instrumental in allowing state employees to unionize, which has greatly contributed to our current fiscal situation and the impending pension bomb. Nice to see he wants us to continue down that road to hell.

 

[fskimospy]

What contracts? The Prison Guard Union has been operating without a contract for the past 5 years. There are several other unions currently in contract negotiations and Brown plans to give them similar sweetheart deals.

Brown was instrumental in allowing state employees to unionize, which has greatly contributed to our current fiscal situation and the impending pension bomb. Nice to see he wants us to continue down that road to hell.

Union pay has not greatly contributed to California's current fiscal situation. Prop 13 and prop 98 are the two largest contributors to California's problems.

Honestly, the proposition system itself is the biggest problem, it should be abolished.

 

[JEDI]

Union pay has not greatly contributed to California's current fiscal situation. Prop 13 and prop 98 are the two largest contributors to California's problems.

Honestly, the proposition system itself is the biggest problem, it should be abolished.

whats a prop?

and what do these 2 do?

 

[JeepinEd]

Union pay has not greatly contributed to California's current fiscal situation. Prop 13 and prop 98 are the two largest contributors to California's problems.

Honestly, the proposition system itself is the biggest problem, it should be abolished.

So you're saying the fact that they can't tax people out of their homes is what has contributed to our current situation?
Nothing to do with the size of government growing many times faster than either the population or cost of living? Or the fact that our state employees earn substantially more than the average state workers in the rest of the US? (average pay for a state prison worker in CA is $71K. In Texas, it's $31K). Now thanks to Gov. Brown, these prison guards can bank their vacation time and cash it in when they retire at their current pay....

I agree with the state proposition system having problems, but that's just a small part of the issue. We are already one of the highest taxed states. How much more should taxes be raised? Can you imagine how high property taxes would be, if it were not for prop13?

You guys seem to think the answer to everything is taxes, but I think the CA populace has reached it's limit. They already voted down the tax extension once.

 

[lupi]

Kali is already seeing significant buisness bailling from the state. At some poijt in the not so distant future they'll hit the line where sppending cuts will be the only option. That should be an interesting watch.

 

[fskimospy]

So you're saying the fact that they can't tax people out of their homes is what has contributed to our current situation?
Nothing to do with the size of government growing many times faster than either the population or cost of living? Or the fact that our state employees earn substantially more than the average state workers in the rest of the US? (average pay for a state prison worker in CA is $71K. In Texas, it's $31K). Now thanks to Gov. Brown, these prison guards can bank their vacation time and cash it in when they retire at their current pay....

I agree with the state proposition system having problems, but that's just a small part of the issue. We are already one of the highest taxed states. How much more should taxes be raised? Can you imagine how high property taxes would be, if it were not for prop13?

You guys seem to think the answer to everything is taxes, but I think the CA populace has reached it's limit. They already voted down the tax extension once.

I don't think you understand the problem with California's tax system. It has very little to do with the AMOUNT of taxation, it has far more to do with the TYPE, and in that respect prop 13 is an unmitigated catastrophe.

Take a look at the tables for government expenditures and revenues, specifically what happens when the recession hit: http://www.lao.ca.gov/laoapp/LAOMenus/lao_menu_economics.aspx What you'll see is that up to that point revenues and expenditures are generally in line with one another, followed by a gigantic dip in tax receipts. One of the big reasons for this is that California is heavily dependent upon sales taxes and capital gains taxes for the revenue that other states generally get from property taxes. Property taxes are generally a stable source of income from year to year, so it makes budget planning easy. Sales taxes and capital gains tend to go way up in good times, and way down in bad times, making them an incredibly unstable way to raise government revenues. This is one of the biggest reasons why California suddenly had a gigantic budget hole out of nowhere.

Prop 13 hasn't actually lowered the total level of taxation in California (it's just made up for in other ways), the only thing it accomplished was making the taxation strategy retarded. The idiots who passed Prop 13 had no idea what the consequences of it were, they just thought similar things to what you posted. That's why the proposition system should be abolished, to keep people from doing insane crap like Prop 13.

 

[JeepinEd]

I don't think you understand the problem with California's tax system. It has very little to do with the AMOUNT of taxation, it has far more to do with the TYPE, and in that respect prop 13 is an unmitigated catastrophe.

Take a look at the tables for government expenditures and revenues, specifically what happens when the recession hit: http://www.lao.ca.gov/laoapp/LAOMenus/lao_menu_economics.aspx What you'll see is that up to that point revenues and expenditures are generally in line with one another, followed by a gigantic dip in tax receipts. One of the big reasons for this is that California is heavily dependent upon sales taxes and capital gains taxes for the revenue that other states generally get from property taxes. Property taxes are generally a stable source of income from year to year, so it makes budget planning easy. Sales taxes and capital gains tend to go way up in good times, and way down in bad times, making them an incredibly unstable way to raise government revenues. This is one of the biggest reasons why California suddenly had a gigantic budget hole out of nowhere.

Prop 13 hasn't actually lowered the total level of taxation in California (it's just made up for in other ways), the only thing it accomplished was making the taxation strategy retarded. The idiots who passed Prop 13 had no idea what the consequences of it were, they just thought similar things to what you posted. That's why the proposition system should be abolished, to keep people from doing insane crap like Prop 13.

When California's economy was doing great, our legislators increased spending by a ridiculous amount. Apparently, they didn't think that at some point, the economy would slow or go into a recession. Tax increases, simply equate to spending increases. You can blame prop 13 all you want, but the simple fact is that CA is spending too much and has given overly generous pay and perks to it's public unions. To exacerbate things, the legislature has made California the most unfriendly state to do business with. It's no wonder companies are bailing.

Just an example: I leased my employees from an employment agency. I would deposit the payroll check into their account and they would take care of payroll, taxes, workers comp., etc. Apparently, the EDD is now going after employment agencies and decided that this company did not pay enough taxes. On the day that most companies do payroll, the EDD decided to cease all the bank accounts for this company. We had already deposited the money into the account, but since they ceased the accounts, all the paychecks bounced. There was no warning given. We had to take out a loan in order to pay the employees ourselves. To top it off, since they essentially put this agency out of business, (and almost put us out of business, since we still don't have that money we deposited) the agency was no longer able to provide workers comp insurance to their clients. The EDD got a list of this agency's customers and started fining them for not having coverage. This all transpired in a time frame of two to three days. They didn't give anyone enough time to find a new insurance provider.

If you spend more than you take in, you tax people to their braking point and drive away business, what do you think is going to happen?

 

[fskimospy]

When California's economy was doing great, our legislators increased spending by a ridiculous amount. Apparently, they didn't think that at some point, the economy would slow or go into a recession. Tax increases, simply equate to spending increases. You can blame prop 13 all you want, but the simple fact is that CA is spending too much and has given overly generous pay and perks to it's public unions. To exacerbate things, the legislature has made California the most unfriendly state to do business with. It's no wonder companies are bailing.

Just an example: I leased my employees from an employment agency. I would deposit the payroll check into their account and they would take care of payroll, taxes, workers comp., etc. Apparently, the EDD is now going after employment agencies and decided that this company did not pay enough taxes. On the day that most companies do payroll, the EDD decided to cease all the bank accounts for this company. We had already deposited the money into the account, but since they ceased the accounts, all the paychecks bounced. There was no warning given. We had to take out a loan in order to pay the employees ourselves. To top it off, since they essentially put this agency out of business, (and almost put us out of business, since we still don't have that money we deposited) the agency was no longer able to provide workers comp insurance to their clients. The EDD got a list of this agency's customers and started fining them for not having coverage. This all transpired in a time frame of two to three days. They didn't give anyone enough time to find a new insurance provider.

If you spend more than you take in, you tax people to their braking point and drive away business, what do you think is going to happen?

It looks like you didn't read what I wrote. This has nothing to do with whether or not you think taxes are too high or too low. When they wildly fluctuate in this manner you will have budget problems no matter what. Prop 13 is a horrible law, and it has significantly contributed to California's current problem.

One of the biggest drivers in the increase in spending btw is yet another proposition passed by the people of California, prop 98, which notably was passed in response to prop 13 due to the severe damage prop 13 did to property tax bases. Prop 98 mandates certain levels of school spending, and increases in that spending based upon increases in tax revenues. Unfortunately it has very limited means by which to decrease spending when revenues go down, so you end up with huge expenses in the budget that are effectively off limits for legislators. Another clusterfuck made possible by the proposition system.

People like to blame California's government, when more than anything it's the PEOPLE of California who are to blame. They are the idiots that passed prop 13 and prop 98, and they are reaping what they have sown.

 

[JeepinEd]

It looks like you didn't read what I wrote. This has nothing to do with whether or not you think taxes are too high or too low. When they wildly fluctuate in this manner you will have budget problems no matter what. Prop 13 is a horrible law, and it has significantly contributed to California's current problem.

One of the biggest drivers in the increase in spending btw is yet another proposition passed by the people of California, prop 98, which notably was passed in response to prop 13 due to the severe damage prop 13 did to property tax bases. Prop 98 mandates certain levels of school spending, and increases in that spending based upon increases in tax revenues. Unfortunately it has very limited means by which to decrease spending when revenues go down, so you end up with huge expenses in the budget that are effectively off limits for legislators. Another clusterfuck made possible by the proposition system.

People like to blame California's government, when more than anything it's the PEOPLE of California who are to blame. They are the idiots that passed prop 13 and prop 98, and they are reaping what they have sown.

And yet we are being told that we need to increase school spending....

 

[SandEagle]

Good joke SandEagle.

no joke InfoPigeon, its true. back in the days this was normal