CAFE: Consumers Need to See the Fine Print on Total Costs

[IGBT]

Thursday, December 06, 2007


We support the 35-mile per gallon CAFE provisions within the just-passed House Energy Bill. SUVOA supports this "compromise" on vehicle fuel economy standards only because compared to other proposals it would be the least expensive for consumers.

Throughout the Congressional deliberations we backed strong increases in fuel economy and use of alternate fuels to reduce the nation?s dependency on imported oil. We also advocated different standards for passenger cars and light trucks, recognizing the workload differences between the two.

However, forcing a 40 percent increase in fuel economy requirements can?t be done without a lot of give and take. More precisely, giving up and taking away.

No one wants better fuel economy more than those who drive light trucks - SUVs, pickups, vans and minivans. They already are paying the most at the pump, but for many these are the only vehicles that meet their family, work or leisure needs.

But there will be no fuel economy free lunch. If an increase of this magnitude were easy or cheap any one of the world's profit-driven auto manufacturers would have already produced an affordable full-sized gas-sipper. It can be done, but the vehicles would cost far more than consumers would save at the gas pump (hybrids, for example are still less than 3% of sales and most owners do not realize a net dollar savings.

As these challenging fuel economy standards phase in, consumers will pay thousands of dollars more for new vehicles. Many will be priced out of the new vehicle market altogether, and even those who can afford the purchase may never own the vehicle long enough to recoup the price hike through savings at the gas pump. Also, there may be far fewer full-size light truck choices and many may not have the power, torque and/or four-wheel drive that many consumers need.

Unfortunately the only conversation occurring is that there will be savings at the gas pump. There?s no discussion about the myriad other costs, including lifestyle and personal safety compromises that are certain to result as vehicle size and capacity shrink.

It is the ?fine print? that consumers need to see today, not years from now when the term sticker shock is likely to have new meaning. SUVOA's prediction: There will be a tremendous uptick in the used vehicle market because many will say, "the just don't build them like they used to."








http://www.suvoa.com/media/new...mment=1&article_id=155

 

[mwmorph]

That 3% can also be used against the argument. When Hybrid production ramps up to 100%, costs to produce will obviously go down so the argument is moot.

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: mwmorph
That 3% can also be used against the argument. When Hybrid production ramps up to 100%, costs to produce will obviously go down so the argument is moot.

..the concern I have is enough is never enough. The eco-nazis will keep raising the bar like they have in the past. Wait till they start crying about EMF fields emitted from electric/hybrid cars.

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: IGBT

Originally posted by: mwmorph
That 3% can also be used against the argument. When Hybrid production ramps up to 100%, costs to produce will obviously go down so the argument is moot.

..the concern I have is enough is never enough. The eco-nazis will keep raising the bar like they have in the past. Wait till they start crying about EMF fields emitted from electric/hybrid cars.

I do agree most if not all activist groups tend to be absolutely worthless. If Americans want it, we'll do it democratically, this being one of those democracies and all, no need to exert undue bias into judgments, the exact thing we're trying to avoid by switching from a monarchy to a more free system.

I do thing we need to fix CAFE though. Right now, ethanol capable vehicles get 2 ratings, Gasoline and ethanol so that even the Chevy Tahoe E85 capable wrangles something around 30mpg(Something like 18(gas)+12(e85)=30(CAFE)). IF anything needs to be fixed, it's that. I'd like to see trucks actually hit 22mpg combined and cars something like 27.5 or whatever it it now without the stupid loopholes.

Here's a fun fact: The only truck, last time I checked a few months ago, that gets 22combined EPA is the Ford Ranger and Escape 4 cylinders and the Escape Hybrid.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: mwmorph
That 3% can also be used against the argument. When Hybrid production ramps up to 100%, costs to produce will obviously go down so the argument is moot.

costs will go down but not to the same point as where a non-hybrid drive line can get to.

 

[KillerCharlie]

Wow, that was a poorly written article.

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: KillerCharlie
Wow, that was a poorly written article.

..what needs to be critiqued is the consequences and true impact of CAFE standards on vehicle design/safety and the realization that some vehicles will disapear (the station wagon) and the overall cost to society if large commerical vehicles are required to comply. All goods and services are delivered by some kind of commerical vehicle i.e. tractor trailor to your retail outlets to the vans and trucks used in construction to the UPS trucks that deliver your mail order.

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: IGBT

Originally posted by: KillerCharlie
Wow, that was a poorly written article.

..what needs to be critiqued is the consequences and true impact of CAFE standards on vehicle design/safety and the realization that some vehicles will disapear (the station wagon) and the overall cost to society if large commerical vehicles are required to comply. All goods and services are delivered by some kind of commerical vehicle i.e. tractor trailor to your retail outlets to the vans and trucks used in construction to the UPS trucks that deliver your mail order.

Vehicles over 6000lbs and non standard semi-road going vehicles(Tactors, construction, mining dump trucks) are extempt.

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: mwmorph

Originally posted by: IGBT

Originally posted by: KillerCharlie
Wow, that was a poorly written article.

..what needs to be critiqued is the consequences and true impact of CAFE standards on vehicle design/safety and the realization that some vehicles will disapear (the station wagon) and the overall cost to society if large commerical vehicles are required to comply. All goods and services are delivered by some kind of commerical vehicle i.e. tractor trailor to your retail outlets to the vans and trucks used in construction to the UPS trucks that deliver your mail order.

Vehicles over 6000lbs and non standard semi-road going vehicles(Tactors, construction, mining dump trucks) are extempt.

..for now. but california has plans.

 

[sandorski]

Many are already priced out of the New Vehicle Market.

 

[Turin39789]

mmmm I support a 45 mpg standard mmmmmm

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: IGBT

Originally posted by: KillerCharlie
Wow, that was a poorly written article.

..what needs to be critiqued is the consequences and true impact of CAFE standards on vehicle design/safety and the realization that some vehicles will disapear (the station wagon) and the overall cost to society if large commerical vehicles are required to comply. All goods and services are delivered by some kind of commerical vehicle i.e. tractor trailor to your retail outlets to the vans and trucks used in construction to the UPS trucks that deliver your mail order.

Why would the station wagon disappear?

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: IGBT

Originally posted by: KillerCharlie
Wow, that was a poorly written article.

..what needs to be critiqued is the consequences and true impact of CAFE standards on vehicle design/safety and the realization that some vehicles will disapear (the station wagon) and the overall cost to society if large commerical vehicles are required to comply. All goods and services are delivered by some kind of commerical vehicle i.e. tractor trailor to your retail outlets to the vans and trucks used in construction to the UPS trucks that deliver your mail order.

Why would the station wagon disappear?

..it's already gone. it was a very popular family vehicle from the 50's thru the mid 80's. but because of the way CAFE standards are calculated the mfg'rs stopped making it.


Text


Sales of station wagons in the United States and Canada remained strong until 1984, when the Chrysler Corporation introduced the first minivans, derived from the K platform, which, ironically, also was the platform for the Plymouth Reliant and Dodge Aries station wagon models which the minivan would soon eclipse.

The ripple effect of the 1973 Arab Oil Embargo led to the demise of the station wagon where CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) legislation dethroned the rear wheel drive layout for efficient front wheel drive vehicles. Station wagons were the victims of Detroit's downsizing trend after 1976, and vehicle choice was limited to SUVs like the Chevrolet Suburban and van conversions (GMC Vandura) which filled the void of station wagon sales. This, indeed, led to the station wagon's demise.

 

[Dman877]

I'm normally for government intervention but in this case, I think we need to let economics make the change for us. Next year or the year after when regular is 5$ a gallon, CAFE standards will be superfluous because Prius' and Volts will be flying off the shelves.

As usual, the wealthy will remain unaffected but hey, we all need something to aspire to .

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: Dman877
I'm normally for government intervention but in this case, I think we need to let economics make the change for us. Next year or the year after when regular is 5$ a gallon, CAFE standards will be superfluous because Prius' and Volts will be flying off the shelves.

As usual, the wealthy will remain unaffected but hey, we all need something to aspire to .

Spoken like a true Democrat.

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: Dman877
I'm normally for government intervention but in this case, I think we need to let economics make the change for us. Next year or the year after when regular is 5$ a gallon, CAFE standards will be superfluous because Prius' and Volts will be flying off the shelves.

As usual, the wealthy will remain unaffected but hey, we all need something to aspire to .

..many states are considering enhanced yearly registration tax on hybrids to off set the lost tax revenue from fuel sales. Washington and Oregon are moving in that direction.

 

[Squisher]

I think people will be surprised in a bad way when they see what the CAFE standards do to their choices for vehicles.

Cars will become smaller
Cars will become much more expensive
Cars will become less powerful
Cars will become less safe


Now, each one of those predictions can be stopped by making the vehicle more expensive. It'll be a unique juggling act automakers will have to do to keep customers.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: IGBT

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Why would the station wagon disappear?

..it's already gone. it was a very popular family vehicle from the 50's thru the mid 80's. but because of the way CAFE standards are calculated the mfg'rs stopped making it.

...

Station wagons were the victims of Detroit's downsizing trend after 1976, and vehicle choice was limited to SUVs like the Chevrolet Suburban and van conversions (GMC Vandura) which filled the void of station wagon sales. This, indeed, led to the station wagon's demise.

That doesn't explain the continued sales of Subaru Forester & Outback wagons, the Dodge Magnum, Volvo wagons, etc...

<-- owns a station wagon and a conversion van

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: IGBT

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Why would the station wagon disappear?

..it's already gone. it was a very popular family vehicle from the 50's thru the mid 80's. but because of the way CAFE standards are calculated the mfg'rs stopped making it.

...

Station wagons were the victims of Detroit's downsizing trend after 1976, and vehicle choice was limited to SUVs like the Chevrolet Suburban and van conversions (GMC Vandura) which filled the void of station wagon sales. This, indeed, led to the station wagon's demise.

That doesn't explain the continued sales of Subaru Forester & Outback wagons, the Dodge Magnum, Volvo wagons, etc...

<-- owns a station wagon and a conversion van

..they're downsized versions of the origional thus the reason SUV's became so popular. It's a way of getting back passenger/cargo space. If you have an average or above average size family you need passenger/cargo space.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: IGBT

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: IGBT

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Why would the station wagon disappear?

..it's already gone. it was a very popular family vehicle from the 50's thru the mid 80's. but because of the way CAFE standards are calculated the mfg'rs stopped making it.

...

Station wagons were the victims of Detroit's downsizing trend after 1976, and vehicle choice was limited to SUVs like the Chevrolet Suburban and van conversions (GMC Vandura) which filled the void of station wagon sales. This, indeed, led to the station wagon's demise.

That doesn't explain the continued sales of Subaru Forester & Outback wagons, the Dodge Magnum, Volvo wagons, etc...

<-- owns a station wagon and a conversion van

..they're downsized versions of the origional thus the reason SUV's became so popular. It's a way of getting back passenger/cargo space. If you have an average or above average size family you need passenger/cargo space.

I do have an above average sized family... but that has nothing to do with you announcing that the wagon is already gone, despite the fact that they're still sold, and seem to do fairly well. I think BMW even still has a wagon.

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: IGBT

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: IGBT

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Why would the station wagon disappear?

..it's already gone. it was a very popular family vehicle from the 50's thru the mid 80's. but because of the way CAFE standards are calculated the mfg'rs stopped making it.

...

Station wagons were the victims of Detroit's downsizing trend after 1976, and vehicle choice was limited to SUVs like the Chevrolet Suburban and van conversions (GMC Vandura) which filled the void of station wagon sales. This, indeed, led to the station wagon's demise.

That doesn't explain the continued sales of Subaru Forester & Outback wagons, the Dodge Magnum, Volvo wagons, etc...

<-- owns a station wagon and a conversion van

..they're downsized versions of the origional thus the reason SUV's became so popular. It's a way of getting back passenger/cargo space. If you have an average or above average size family you need passenger/cargo space.

I do have an above average sized family... but that has nothing to do with you announcing that the wagon is already gone, despite the fact that they're still sold, and seem to do fairly well. I think BMW even still has a wagon.

..is that what they call a "cross over vehicle"? are any vehicles marketed as stationwagons anymore?

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: Squisher
I think people will be surprised in a bad way when they see what the CAFE standards do to their choices for vehicles.

Cars will become smaller
Cars will become much more expensive
Cars will become less powerful
Cars will become less safe


Now, each one of those predictions can be stopped by making the vehicle more expensive. It'll be a unique juggling act automakers will have to do to keep customers.

..safety is a huge concern. it'll be death by the gallon. and the vehicles we normally associate with recreation will disappear.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: IGBT
..is that what they call a "cross over vehicle"? are any vehicles marketed as stationwagons anymore?

What do you call this?

You ARE a P&Ner.

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: IGBT
..is that what they call a "cross over vehicle"? are any vehicles marketed as stationwagons anymore?

What do you call this?

You ARE a P&Ner.

..."The M5 Touring will be offered in select European markets, including the U.K., but it's unclear if it will ever come to American shores."

..possibly due to CAFE standards??

 

[dug777]

You can stick a surprisingly small four cylinder turbo-diesel in most 'light-trucks', and they'll do anything you want for a remarkably good fuel economy. No real compromises required (boat loads of torque, new diesels are plenty powerful), but it'll cost a little more.

Boo hoo. It's not as if consumers have a god given right to cheap SUVs, or is it?