CADD graphics performance choices - monitor and video card

[TStep]

My father is considering a home computer to allow him to do some CADD work at the house. He is a Civil designer involved in structural design, 3D node analysis, terrain mapping, etc. He is working with AutoCADD release?? and a few structural (Civilsoft?) and storm water (Haysteads methods?) programs that integrate their workings with AutoCADD. I think most of his work is in 2D CADD but I know for sure that topographic map generations are in 3D and slow as hell on his office setup.

After sponging off of him for the first 20 years of my life, I'd like to build him a decent setup, but do not have a good feel for a monitor and graphics card selection. Questions:

1) pros/cons nvidia, ati, matrox offerings. Any personal experiences in the group?

2) do I really need a workstation class card or will a 9800 or FX5800, FX5900 do the trick? I have read some folks flashing these cards into workstation class card equivalents. What are the benefits? Can't really afford $1000 for a workstation card.

3) obviously image quality is of utmost importance. Any suggestions in this regard?

4) monitor: anyone have any luck in the LCD department or should I just be looking in the 19"-21" CRT bracket? Would really like to go LCD just for space savings. No real need for absolute pure color rendition as in Photoshop, but must have a very crisp image.

Have done some research in the workstation area, but I don't have a good enough feel to make an educated decision. Any opinion, link, suggestion appreciated.

 

[TStep]

anyone?

 

[PG]

Get a Geforce FX 5900XT, brand doesn't matter much, and do a softmod to a Quadro FX 3000. Performance in some areas will be improved 200 to 300 percent. See here:

http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?s=183299412617661367aed6c233c59dc9&threadid=91686

The detailed instructions are on page 7 and you don't need to touch the card, it's all a software hack:

5900XT -- > Quadro FX3000

Download and install RivaTuner

1. Download the 45.28 driver from NVIDIA :
http://download.nvidia.com/Windows/....28_win2kxp.exe
and Unpack this file to a directory,for example -- c:\45.28

2. Create a dir name "MOD",for example -- c:\MOD
3. Copy these 3 files from c:\45.28 to c:\MOD
nv4_mini.sy_
nv4_disp.dl_
nvoglnt.dl_

4. Copy the Unpack.bat (which Rui made) to c:\MOD, and run it.
unpack.bat is simply:
expand nv4_mini.sy_ nv4_mini.sys
expand nv4_disp.dl_ nv4_disp.dll
expand nvoglnt.dl_ nvoglnt.dll

( Download unpack.bat and nv4_disp.inf here http://jupiter.lunarpages.com/~augiem2/Modstep.zip )

5. In c:\MOD, delete
nv4_mini.sy_
nv4_disp.dl_
nvoglnt.dl_

6. Run RivaTuner
PowerUser --> Open Patch Script
Apply these four scripts:
*Softquadro4
*NV Strap Antiprotector
*AnisoBoosterOpenGL
*DetonatorFXAntiprotector
When the script ask for the location of the driver, just point to c:\MOD

7. In c:\MOD, del *.old ,and rename the rest:
nv4_mini.sys => nv4_mini.sy_
nv4_disp.dll => nv4_disp.dl_
nvoglnt.dll => nvoglnt.dl_

After that, copy them to c:\45.28, replacing the original files

8. Copy nv4_disp.inf to c:\45.28, replacing the original one.
(Allows 45.28 drivers to recognize the 5900XT - find it in modstep.zip listed in step 4.)

9. Download a 60.xx driver from guru3d, install it (run exe), reboot ,uninstall it, reboot., Your system is back to VGA mode.

10.In the moded driver dir c:\45.28, run setup.exe to install 45.28 driver, reboot.

11.Run RivaTuner, install NVStrap, but do not reboot. In NVStrap, Change the PCI Device ID to Custom --> 0338 Quadro 3000. Reboot.

12.When Windows asks to install a driver for Quadro 3000, press cancel.

13.In c:\45.28, run setup.exe, again, reboot.

14.Go to Display Properties -> Settings -> Advanced -> Nvidia panel -> Open GL Settings -> Vsync OFF by default

15. Download and run SpecViewPerf 7.1.1
http://www.spec.org/gpc/downloadindex.html

---------

Before and after posted from one guy:


SPEC 7.1
5900xt (390/700)
Run All Summary

---------- SUM_RESULTS\3DSMAX\SUMMARY.TXT
3dsmax-02 Weighted Geometric Mean = 13.02

---------- SUM_RESULTS\DRV\SUMMARY.TXT
drv-09 Weighted Geometric Mean = 49.02

---------- SUM_RESULTS\DX\SUMMARY.TXT
dx-08 Weighted Geometric Mean = 63.84

---------- SUM_RESULTS\LIGHT\SUMMARY.TXT
light-06 Weighted Geometric Mean = 12.87

---------- SUM_RESULTS\PROE\SUMMARY.TXT
proe-02 Weighted Geometric Mean = 13.21

---------- SUM_RESULTS\UGS\SUMMARY.TXT
ugs-03 Weighted Geometric Mean = 7.538


softmod to quadro 3000 (470/740)

Run All Summary

---------- SUM_RESULTS\3DSMAX\SUMMARY.TXT
3dsmax-02 Weighted Geometric Mean = 24.58

---------- SUM_RESULTS\DRV\SUMMARY.TXT
drv-09 Weighted Geometric Mean = 138.3

---------- SUM_RESULTS\DX\SUMMARY.TXT
dx-08 Weighted Geometric Mean = 131.6

---------- SUM_RESULTS\LIGHT\SUMMARY.TXT
light-06 Weighted Geometric Mean = 28.18

---------- SUM_RESULTS\PROE\SUMMARY.TXT
proe-02 Weighted Geometric Mean = 37.77

---------- SUM_RESULTS\UGS\SUMMARY.TXT
ugs-03 Weighted Geometric Mean = 47.90


--------------------

Note: Not all cards will have the high UGS score after the softmod, but everything else seems to improve.
Also, you need to use those 45.28 drivers because Nvidia has changed the newer drivers and added extra protection so hacks on newer drivers won't work.
And that step where you install new drivers and then uninstall them is just to clear the machine of old drivers.

 

[TStep]

sweet, greatly appreciate the detailed reply

 

[AnnoyedGrunt]

Pro/E user here, and I've had the best luck with Nvidia based cards.

We use Quadro cards @ work (very old ones based on GF1 or GF2, but they are still quite fast for our purposes) and I have used my GF1 SDR, and GF3 Ti200 @ home with great results.

I've never tried any of the softmods to change a gaming card into a workstation card, but I think the most notable difference is the way they handle multiple OpenGL windows. Does AutoCAD even use OpenGL? Anyhow, with the consumer cards, the number of allowable windows is typically a function of the onboard memory (not sure why this is, but maybe the card doesn't "release" the inactive windows and therefore tries to keep the data in memory). Judging from the benchmarks above I guess there are other things going on as well, but overall a gaming card would probably work well even if you are unable to mod it.

As far as monitors go, I highly recommend an LCD. We use 20-22" CRT's @ work, typically @ 1600x1200, but our laptop has a 15" 1600x1200 screen that is much nicer to use for the most part. After using the laptop, all our other monitors just seem blurry. Since color reproduction isn't a top priority in general CAD work, I think an LCD with 1600x1200 resolution would be a fantastic way to go. Cost is definitely not the best, but performance would be excellent.

Right now it looks like Dell and Samsung both have very nice 20" LCD panels (our work laptop is a Dell BTW, and just looks great).

Anyhow, good luck!

-D'oh!

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: AnnoyedGrunt
Does AutoCAD even use OpenGL?

Yes, it does. Go tools-options-system-properties and select "hardware acceleration" if you have a professional (or modded) graphics card. On my system I use the "wopengl7.hdi" driver which AFAIK is an OpenGL driver.

CAD gets a massive boost from a pro graphics card. I would say it's at least twice as fast. You'll especially notice it if you're working in 3D with materials and lighting.

I'm using a 9700PRO softmodded to an X1, but I would reccomend nVidia as others have said. My performance has been pretty good, but I have run into stability issues in both CAD and 3D Max. It may be due to the softmod, but I'm thinking it's because of ATi's drivers.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: AnnoyedGrunt
overall a gaming card would probably work well even if you are unable to mod it.

Maybe for simple things, but not for anything even remotely complex. The problem that I've found is that once you reach a certain level of complexity in CAD, your system can be brought to its knees. It will be virtually unusable. I was forced to mod my card to an X1 in order to finish my architectural thesis; I was at the point where I couldn't even pan around in wireframe mode in 3D Max. CAD was almost as slow and I was forced to run in 2D wireframe mode which was useless to me in most situations, not to mention the fact that it was still slow.

 

[TStep]

Looks as though the FX59xx series, with softmod, is the way to go. Any advantage of 256meg over 128meg card for AutoCAD?

Slightly OT: Out of curiosity, what are your system specs pushing those cards you guys are using? I was considering either a P4 2.4c @3.0c on an 865 board or and AMD nforce2 w/ an oc mobile.

Any advantages for a particular platform that make tangible differences in speed w/ respect to CADD routines, as this will be the most demanding app the comp will see? I've searched through many reviews and it seems as though the AMD XP platform has a slight advantage and the A64 difference is not worth the additional cost, any thoughts? I'm lean towards the AMD XP platform, something on the order of an NF-7S and a mobile 2500+, shooting for 2.2-2.3, very, very stable.

Also, how much DDR? Intend on PC3200 512meg low latency. Will go to a gig, but not if it's only a few% quicker.

Thanks for your thoughts

 

[SickBeast]

TStep, I'm running an XP Mobile rig at 2400mhz right now and it's incredbily fast in CAD from a processing standpoint. I have 1GB of ram which really helps with 3D Max; if I could afford 2GB I would buy it.

I used an XP 2600+ machine at work and it was also very fast. AFAIK the raw floating point power of the Athlon chips is unmatched by the intel chips in CAD. As for A64 I don't know, but I would imagine that a 64-bit port of AutoCAD would be much faster than what we're using today. If I were buying a computer today it would honestly be a 2800+ A64 w/ a gig of RAM on the $88 Chaintech motherboard. The 5900 nVidia card looks like a great candidate for a softmod. I guess in a nutshell that's my reccomendation for a CAD workstation. If you wanted to you could probably go with an XP Mobile setup and save a bit of cash, but in all honesty 64-bit is the future and with the small price difference that exists now I would suggest the X64.

Your question about video memory is interesting but I do not know the answer. I would imagine that if you use tons of textures in 3D Max you would require more video memory. The thing is, a 5900 only has enough processing power to really push 128mb of memory; 256 is pretty much overkill for it.

 

[AnnoyedGrunt]

My work computer is pretty old (but I was just rejected on a new computer request, so it'll have to last for a while longer):

P4 1500 MHz
1 GB RDRAM
30 GB IDE HDD
Elsa Gloria DCC (Quadro card)

At home I have used:
P2 400
128 MB
GF1 SDR

I have been able to design an entire robot in Pro/E @ home and it has performed relatively the same as on the Quadro cards @ work. Now, I haven't used ACAD since Release 12 on a 486, so I'm not up to speed on how it taxes a system.

The robot's have usually 200-300 parts including screws and washers, so they can be fairly taxing, but definitely not a large scale product. Now, if we try to load the entire system, with maybe 1000-2000+ parts, both the home computers and the work computers slow down. The point is that in my experience the home cards did not get significantly slower than the Quadro ones, but I was using different software so that point may not apply to you (since Sickbeast has more relevant experience, you should probably weigh his findings more). My other point is that unless you want to spend the money on a Quadro card, your best bet is to go with Nvidia IMO. Then, you have the opportunity to softmod, and will still have decent performance on simpler things if the softmod doesn't work.

So, while Sickbeast and I may not agree on the relative importance of softmodding, I think we both agree that a 5900 is probably the best card to get (at least for now).

As far as a system goes, I would splurge on an A64 2800+, and I'd try to go for 1GB of RAM. 512 would probably work for the CAD stuff, but once you start running analysis software, that extra RAM makes a big difference (at least in the Pro/E world).

Good luck!

-D'oh!

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: AnnoyedGrunt
So, while Sickbeast and I may not agree on the relative importance of softmodding, I think we both agree that a 5900 is probably the best card to get (at least for now).

Grunt, your observations are every bit as valid as mine, and I appreciate your feedback. I have never used an NV30-based card in CAD, and for all I know they could well be just fine without any kind of softmodding. They may in fact be just as fast as a FireGL X1.

With my card, I softmod only when I'm working on a very complex project, and then revert to a 9700 when I'm just doing basic houses and stuff. Softmodding is OK but there can be driver issues. The other problem is that most of the time you will be stuck using a driver set that is up to a year old. Hardmods are preferrable IMO, but they are also risky and can create more work up front. I'm looking to hardmod my card into an X1 so I can use the latest driver set, but I won't have time to try until my thesis is complete. The lack of a decent guide on the internet is also a problem.

My train station is 15,500kB as far as file size goes (it's 100% polygons) and it's bringing my computer to a crawl when it's not modded to an X1. As for an object count, I would estimate that it's at least 3000 polygons, if not more. I would say that this is a fairly typical small to mid-sized architectural project.

 

[TStep]

Excellent and thank you. My father will unknowingly appreciate your guidance here (as do I). I'm going to get started on his system shortly. In the future, do either of you two guys mind if I bug via pm, if I have any questions?

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: TStep
Excellent and thank you. My father will unknowingly appreciate your guidance here (as do I). I'm going to get started on his system shortly. In the future, do either of you two guys mind if I bug via pm, if I have any questions?

You're welcome, and don't hesitate to PM me if you have any questions. I'm sure that your results will be of great interest to me as I may end up purchasing a 5900 myself.

 

[AnnoyedGrunt]

I'd be happy to respond to any PM's (but I'll have to see if I've even turned them on).

What's funny is that at the beginning of the year I swapped out my GF3 Ti200 for a 9700Pro, but I haven't run any CAD on it so I can't compare it to the GF3 is Pro/E.

I'm not sure how many polygons the Pro/E models have, but when you get all the parts and all the assemblies you end up with about 50 Mb of stuff. AutoCAD and Pro/E handle the models differently though, so I doubt you can use the file sizes as an indication of complexity. I will say though, that I've designed castings in Pro/E where a single file was about 4 MB in size. If I remember I'll try and find out if I can get a number of polygons on any of the parts.

Anyhow, I'm interested in hearing how things turn out.

-D'oh!

 

[VirtualLarry]

3DLabs Wildcat-series cards have some serious dedicated geometry-processor hardware, and are more oriented towards polygon performance (workstation/engineering tasks), rather than raw texturing/fill-rate performance (gaming tasks). I'd look into them.

 

[batmanuel]

It may not be a screamer anymore, but if you want to get a decent workstation card for cheap, Computer Geeks has a refurb'd Fire GL 8800 for $75.99. It is basically a Radeon 8500 with some extra OpenGL features for the pros (like hardware accelerated AA for wireframes, more hardware lights), so chances are an unmodded 5900 would probably outperform it, but it is a good deal for a genuine professional OGL card. I bought one from them a while back for about $90 and for a refurb it was in great condition and has given me no issues yet (aside from ATi's craptacular dual monitor support).