CAD Workstation Questions

[Kenazo]

Anyone here work with AutoCAD, or whatever program is most widely used these days? I've been asked to throw a quote together for a system that will be used mainly for CAD applications, and have a few questions for someone knowledgeable in the field. Please PM me, or drop a note here of how I can best contact you. Thanks.

 

[Yossarian]

dual processors, an assload of RAM, and a professional-level graphics card.

 

[Kenazo]

does that mean you have lots of experience, or that's your dream system?
If this belongs in a different forum, feel free to move it.


The systems I'm competing against are 3 different IBM Intellistation MPro's, ranging from p4 2.8 to p43.0 ghz, all with 1GB ECC ram, and either Quadro 4 580 XGL or Quadro 4 980 XGL video cards.

My questions are:
1. Can a high end Athlon XP based system compete against a p4 based solution? How about Athlon64 or Opterons?
2. anyone know of a page of comparisons between the different Quadro series cards, preferably with benchmarks.
3. Can a high end gaming card (like a 5900 ultra or 9800 pro) compete in this application w/ the cards listed above?
4. what is more important in an application like this, hard drive space, or speed? The quotes I'm up against are 36.4 SCSI drives, would SATA RAID not be a better choice?

 

[Cerb]

What are they going to be doing? If they never do much outside of drawing or wireframe rednering, a cheap Athlon box will be great.
1. From what I have found, yes, but what exactly is done makes a difference. Basically, if you're going with a prebuilt machine, that specific machine's parts matter more than your AMD/Intel choice.
2. Not exactly, but... http://www.cadalyst.com/reviews/ (note that their last
3. Yes, but if a lot of rendering is being done, you might as well go with the Quadro. They disable parts on the gaming cards that specifically hobble high-end capabilities that games don't use. Many tests with real Quadros vs. equivalent GF and soft-Quadro'd GF cards show that while in many things they are similar, in some the real quadros just whoop ass.
Also note the most recent review at Cadalyst...if high quality rendering is important, the Quadro4 980 looks like THE one to get.
4. CPU & RAM. Once again, of large files and/or heavy rendering is going on, get Raptors or Cheatas. Overall, get Registered ECC HyperX if you can (Registered XMS exists, but I don't know about registered ECC XMS, and I wouldn't put a big workstation together without ECC RAM).
Note that ECC RAM leaves you Opteron and P4 for processors, basically.
I would recommend not going RAID 0, but either RAID 1, RAID 0+1, or RAID 5. For the most part, 8MB IDE drives should be fine (but if you use a VIA-based board, get the SATA versions).
SATA RAID may or may not be a better choice. Price it out with similar performing 10K SCSI drives and see.

 

[Sluggo]

4. what is more important in an application like this, hard drive space, or speed? The quotes I'm up against are 36.4 SCSI drives, would SATA RAID not be a better choice?

The most important part is going to be stability, dont skimp on a motherboard, RAM or power supply. Dont get the job by tossing in crappy parts to keep the cost down, use the best stuff, and explain why your system may cost more.

 

[SuperTool]

I found that robustness and throughput is more important that outright speed for cad workstation. If you have a fixed budget, concentrate on memory subsystem over clock frequency. Also, running multiple monitors is important. That way you can have email or web open in one, and your work in the other.

 

[Kenazo]

So here is what I'm considering for the backbone of my system:

Abit IC7-G
P4 3.0 (800fsb)
2x Corsair XMS 512 PC3200 ECC
Quadro4 980 XGL

I've always worked w/ Athlon XP systems, but you're telling me not to recommend say an Asus A7N8X, an Athlon XP 3200 and a gig of higher end PC3200 ram. I have never had a stability issue w/ AMD, but will the premium paid for p4 really be worth it?

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: Kenazo
So here is what I'm considering for the backbone of my system:

Abit IC7-G
P4 3.0 (800fsb)
2x Corsair XMS 512 PC3200 ECC
Quadro4 980 XGL

I've always worked w/ Athlon XP systems, but you're telling me not to recommend say an Asus A7N8X, an Athlon XP 3200 and a gig of higher end PC3200 ram. I have never had a stability issue w/ AMD, but will the premium paid for p4 really be worth it?

What exactly will the system do?
Review X will show the P4 winning. Review Y will show the Athlon XP winning.
That will be a good system regardless, but chances are that overall it will be a wash between the AthlonXP and P4, unless you're using a CAD program optomized for the P4 (AFAIK, most aren't optomized much at all, which I imagine is part of what leaves the Athlon XP competitive, much like it is in basic office apps) or Athlon. The Athlon64 would surely be better, but probably not by too much, and Opteron is VERY costly, with little or no gain in this case compared to P4 HT or dual Xeons (the Xeons will likely be overkill, even if you have large files and big databases).
...much like high-end video, the memory, motherboard and hard drive will likely make the kost difference, just don't get cheap on any of it.

BTW, I built a system for someone using Land Development Desktop 2004 9and still help him out every now and then), and for any and all actual work, an AthlonXP 3000+ w/ 1GB of pC2700 HyperX on a 8RDA+ w/ an 8MB 80GB WD drive was plenty. Initial loading, occasional complete redreawing, and trying to make a nice presentation piece of the stuff took some time, but even then a single-digit matter of seconds. To play around, I lowered the memory to about 100MHz (60% or so)...fast memory helps a lot. With the 200MHz Athlon XPs and Athlon64s, it'll be even better, and the P4s won't be lagging behind, however, they stack up.

For things that are open: RAM and CPU (mostly RAM)
For saving/loading: HDs.
If you can help it, get enough memory not to need to swap. Get a mobo that can take 4GB registered ECC, and if the thing ends up needing more than your 1GB, you can add and replace as needed (with 2x512 you can go to 3GB w/o replacing, and I doubt you'll need more than 2, but you might need more than 1--depends). Pagefile BAD.

Also, get Windows XP if you go with an LCD monitor. It's generally a bit slower than Windows 2000 (no, I'm not making this up), but for an LCD, after using ClearType, your eyes will thank you and buy you a valentine.

Lastly, seriously consider dual monitors. Having the bulk of the drawing in one, and the command line and some not-often-used-but-needed palettes and toolbars on the other make great use of space. Otherwise the main monitor will fill up very fast, no matter what actual program you're using--there's too much stuff for one display.

 

[Kenazo]

Wow. That's a well thought out response. Thank you so much. I'll see what I can do for him. The company makes canvas covered barns, truck tarps and the like here's their site so I doubt they will be doing any extremely intensive CAD work, basically just blueprints, maybe some composite drawings, etc.

Here's an ECC ram question: Is it necessary? If I go with decent Corsair ram in a INTEL D865PERL would that be stable enough? I have had my computer freeze up maybe twice since I built it half a year ago, and that's just using crappy infineon ram in a Soltek mobo.

 

[Cerb]

OK...chances are the graphics card will never get pushed. Don't go super cheap, but I doubt a nice Quadro4 would get utilized often. but get some sort of workstation card anyway--you never know (also, even if a gaming card would do better, it'll be worthwhile since seeing a name like Quadro or FireGL will be familiar, even if he doesn't really know what any of it is). Maybe one of the 150-300 USD Quadros--it'll be good enough if he starts using some of the fancy stuff, and nothing overkill for now (primary LCD display on DVI, secondary, if any, on VGA).
Odd that Quadros seem to be hard to find with dual-DVI...seems like having a $300 or less dual-DVIL "workstation" card would be a great selling point. ATI's cheapest dual-DVI is $364 at Newegg...so that isn't bad, either, but even more overkill .

You don't need ECC RAM necessarily, but however simple, this stuff is, it is mission-critical. While you might read and write to RAM often enough, and reset the machine often enough to negate errors, if you don't, murphy might get ya. It probably won't matter, but...there's always that but. If cost is a major concern, then don't get ECC.
I would not imagine too massive files are going to exist for tents and tarps, so I'd go with a plain IDE and 1GB RAM.

On the motherboard, AFAICT, the D865PERL, nor any 865-based motherboards support ECC. The 875-based boards, like D875PBZLK or Abit's IC-7, do (though I thought they shared the same northbridge...but...whatever).
As far as the mobo to get...Intels are rock solid...but several Asus and Abit boards have a very large enthusiast user base, so forum support could be handy. After some of Abit and Epox's screw-ups with the early Athlon boards (and Abit's with some of the late PII/PIII ones), most have gotten far, far more stable, reliable and compatible.

Chances are even what I recommend above will be a touch overkill, but you
1. want it still functional, if obsolete, 5 years from now, and
2. want it to scale to potentially growing needs if business starts getting really good, and still work flawlessly. It's one thing if it needs a faster HD or more memory along the road because he's getting far more complex projects...it's another if something quickly becomes ungodly slow or breaks all of a sudden.

 

[Kenazo]

Just got off the phone with them. They will be running AutoCAD, I'm assuming 2004 with Inventor, and from what I'm reading here the recommended system is only a p3-800. So, I'm sure anything in the 3ghz range will be more than adequate. Thanks for all the great suggestions, everybody, especially cerb. Much appreciated. I'll have to send you a commission cheque if I land the job... or how about a hearty thanks?