CAD mouse recommendation? Similar to Logitech G5, but with a good middle-click.

[Jeff7]

(The thread's been updated again, post#26. Old title: "CAD mouse recommendation? Similar to Logitech G5, but with a good middle-click.")

I'm in the market for a mouse to replace the semi-functional mouse I've got at work. Wireless will be tolerable if it does not suck. I'd have no complaints with a corded mouse.
Currently the wireless one at work, which is a part of an inexpensive Logitech keyboard/mouse combo, starts acting up at least once a day. It will become sluggish without warning, lose tracking, or else seize up completely, requiring that I pull the batteries to cycle power.

At home, I have a Logitech G5 mouse, and it's great, except for the middle-button-click. It takes a lot of force to get the middle click to work properly, and in the process, I invariably bump the left- and right-middle-click buttons. At home, that's not much of a problem, as I don't need middle click often here.
At work, I use Pro/Engineer. It needs middle-click for damn near everything.

While the G5's wheel can be bumped left and right in place of middle-click, that doesn't really work out so well for me, as when I bump the wheel to the side, the mouse, and thus the cursor, moves slightly to the side as well.


Summary:
- Need a new mouse. Corded is preferred; wireless only if it doesn't lose the signal constantly, and if it has rechargeable batteries.
- Lightweight would be good. I'd be using this thing a lot, and the joints in my hands are already starting to complain a bit.
- Logitech's G5 is damn near perfect, except that its middle-click functionality is godawful, requiring Thor's Might to press it down. I need smooth, easy-to-press middle-click capability.
- Lots of programmable buttons would be a plus.



Update: I went was in the midst of another small upgrade spree, following my PC upgrade a bit earlier this year. Included in this was a 27" LCD, a new keyboard, and a G500 mouse. (Now all that's left of the original PC is the case, the speakers, and the DVD drive.)

I think I'll try to get this mouse for work as well, assuming they approve the "insane" $63 pricetag. (They're accustomed to spending closer to $5 for a mouse.) Luckily my supervisor has seen me use a computer, including my copious use of keyboard shortcuts. He feels that the G500's pricetag might actually be worth it for me, thanks to its programmable buttons, so hopefully he'll help get the ok for this purchase.

Buttons: The middle click has been dramatically improved over the G5, though it's still not really a "light" click. But it's definitely easy to middle-click without hitting one of the side-scroll buttons. I'll reassign one of the thumb buttons to middle-click and see how that works out.
Besides that, the left and right buttons press very easily, with a lot less force than the mouse I've got at work now, something similar to this. The G500 is shaped better, too.

Scroll wheel: It's got that "ultra-scroll" thing, or whatever it's called, where the wheel keeps spinning on its own once it's given a push. It's on darn good bearings, too, as it can keep spinning for quite awhile after it's given a turn. But this sort of thing would probably play hell on something like CAD software, which can zoom with the wheel. Fortunately there's a button right there at the wheel to toggle over to the the traditional click-rotation.

Downsides:
- I don't like the positioning of the +/- sensitivity buttons (which I've assigned to be forward/back navigation buttons). They're just a bit out of the way, requiring that the index finger go a bit out of its way to hit them.
- The scroll wheel's motion toggle button is a tiny bit larger than it needs to be.
- It needs more buttons. Perhaps one or two over by the right-mouse button...

Concerning my workplace, with respect to the cost - I'm guessing that few people where I work have even heard of a mouse that has more than left and right buttons, and maybe even a scroll wheel. Plus, the use of keyboard shortcuts are virtually unheard of. It routinely amazes people when they stop in to ask me for a file or for some piece of information, and then they get to watch me navigate the fileserver quickly, while hardly touching the mouse at all.
My preference is to have both hands actively engaged in operating the computer, instead of basically tying my left hand behind my back, while the mouse has to do everything. For one, it's inefficient, which can get frustrating due to the sluggish pace, and for another, it's a strain on the hand that has to use the mouse.
(I wish they'd let me buy the Datahand Professional II. Dear god that looks like an awesome concept, just short of VR gloves.)

 

[Sheninat0r]

Could you re-bind left scroll and right scroll to middle click in SetPoint on your G5 and just use that? I barely ever use left and right scroll on my G500, so if I were in your situation I'd probably just carry the mouse on you with the button rebound.

 

[Ika]

Which G5 is it, the one-side-button or the two-side-button? I've used both, and the v2 G5 (with two side buttons) has a MUCH improved middle click. With the original G5 I had to map one of the tilts to middle-click, I could never click it accurately. With the G500, they've improved the scroll wheel even more, and now it's a joy to use. Much less friction, has the option for flywheel scrolling, and if you're looking for programmable buttons the G500 has three side ones (although I don't like the feel of the new buttons compared to the old).

 

[Jeff7]

Could you re-bind left scroll and right scroll to middle click in SetPoint on your G5 and just use that? I barely ever use left and right scroll on my G500, so if I were in your situation I'd probably just carry the mouse on you with the button rebound.

Already mentioned that.

While the G5's wheel can be bumped left and right in place of middle-click, that doesn't really work out so well for me, as when I bump the wheel to the side, the mouse, and thus the cursor, moves slightly to the side as well.

And I'd kind of prefer not to use Setpoint for binding. Every so often, it decides to screw up, and the bindings stop working, requiring a reboot. (It did that in WinXP, and it does it more frequently in Win7 64-bit, as Logitech doesn't support the latter for the G5 using Setpoint.

Which G5 is it, the one-side-button or the two-side-button? I've used both, and the v2 G5 (with two side buttons) has a MUCH improved middle click. With the original G5 I had to map one of the tilts to middle-click, I could never click it accurately. With the G500, they've improved the scroll wheel even more, and now it's a joy to use. Much less friction, has the option for flywheel scrolling, and if you're looking for programmable buttons the G500 has three side ones (although I don't like the feel of the new buttons compared to the old).

It has one thumb button, if that's what you're referring to.

What's different about the feel of the new buttons in the G500? Looks nice.



Also....the Logitech MX Revolution set looks like fun.

 

[Throckmorton]

The cylindrical Logitech scroll wheel sucks. It's hard to press, has short travel, and moves left/right really easily-- it feels wobbly.

They may have improved them since my 2007 G9, but I doubt it.

 

[0roo0roo]

its not that simple, different models have different feel.

i'm surprised u don't like the g9 wheel, i find it easiest of the lot. it is firm with very low travel or wobble so when u push it, u know it,and did it on purpose. my rev and mx1100 v550 have far longer travel loosy goosy wheel travel which are annoying compared. in any case all wheels should be rare use, the form factor is not ergonomic by default, button should only be able to move in one direction, being able to tilt and roll just over complicates things.

 

[tweakboy]

Forget cheapitech I mean logitech.

Go to www.razerzone.com and choose your mouse. Better quality not plastic buttons cheap makeup... you wont regret it, Razer pownz in gaming gear. www.razerzone.com

its not a cheap middle scroll or click like logi, Their wireless laser 5600DPI Mamba is 130 retail. You can find it for 78 to 109 dollars on www.amazon.com

 

[CurseTheSky]

Forget cheapitech I mean logitech.

Go to www.razerzone.com and choose your mouse. Better quality not plastic buttons cheap makeup... you wont regret it, Razer pownz in gaming gear. www.razerzone.com

its not a cheap middle scroll or click like logi, Their wireless laser 5600DPI Mamba is 130 retail. You can find it for 78 to 109 dollars on www.amazon.com

I highly disagree. Every Razer mouse I've ever used feels hollow, like it's full of air. The left / right buttons are long and fairly twitchy. I haven't tried the Mamba, so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt, but my Logitech G9 and G500 have been the most solid mice I've ever used.

Doesn't Razer still use the Twin-Eye sensor as well? There are tons of complaints about those things, especially since it's used in the R.A.T. 7, which supposedly has amazing build quality otherwise.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

The MX518 should have good middle mouse wheel, no hyperscrolling or left/right BS so it should be a normal mouse wheel. My 1600DPI MX518's wheel is as good as any other mouse I've owned, not a pain like my G9x. I'd assume the newer 1800DPI MX518 is the same. The MX518 would also be the most similar to the G5 in terms of form and functionality, and also wouldn't cost too much.

$25 AR ($40 shipped) from newegg too, http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16826104178.

Primary cons to the MX518 would be no official increased polling rate support (stuck with 125Hz unless you do a software mod), no on board memory or upgradable firmware for storing settings for use without drivers across multiple computers, and the sensor has some drift control that will force smoother lines even if you don't want it.


Also might want to give the G9x a whirl, as its currently 50% off from logitech @ $40: http://www.logitech.com/en-us/logitech-e-products/devices/7733

Although I'd be wary of its mouse wheel, I know I don't care for it, but I get away with re programming the tilt functions to mirror middle mouse and think it works out just fine. Keep in mind that the Setpoint software shouldn't be needed once its configured, the settings should be saved to the mouse's internal memory and should then function identically across whichever computer you plug it in to without the Setpoint drivers.


There are plenty of other options but they start getting a lot more expensive, so I'm not sure how far to go without a budget.

The cylindrical Logitech scroll wheel sucks. It's hard to press, has short travel, and moves left/right really easily-- it feels wobbly.

They may have improved them since my 2007 G9, but I doubt it.

nope, I'd say my new G9x requires the same "Thor's Might" to get the middle mouse to click, at least relative to all my other mice.

 

[Jeff7]

The MX518 should have good middle mouse wheel, no hyperscrolling or left/right BS so it should be a normal mouse wheel. My 1600DPI MX518's wheel is as good as any other mouse I've owned, not a pain like my G9x. I'd assume the newer 1800DPI MX518 is the same. The MX518 would also be the most similar to the G5 in terms of form and functionality, and also wouldn't cost too much.

$25 AR ($40 shipped) from newegg too, http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16826104178.

Primary cons to the MX518 would be no official increased polling rate support (stuck with 125Hz unless you do a software mod), no on board memory or upgradable firmware for storing settings for use without drivers across multiple computers, and the sensor has some drift control that will force smoother lines even if you don't want it.

I had a program at some point in time which allowed for easy patching of USB drivers to change the polling rate. I don't remember if it made a noticeable difference though.

There are plenty of other options but they start getting a lot more expensive, so I'm not sure how far to go without a budget.

I don't know either; I'd have to check. Probably not this expensive though.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Forget cheapitech I mean logitech.

Go to www.razerzone.com and choose your mouse. Better quality not plastic buttons cheap makeup... you wont regret it, Razer pownz in gaming gear. www.razerzone.com

its not a cheap middle scroll or click like logi, Their wireless laser 5600DPI Mamba is 130 retail. You can find it for 78 to 109 dollars on www.amazon.com

So Razer uses what? Expensive plastic buttons? Because the buttons are plastic, they just have a spray-on rubber coating. Logitech's middle scroll isn't a problem because its cheap, its because it's over engineered with hyper-scrolling and tilt features. Also this thread is about CAD, not gaming.

I highly disagree. Every Razer mouse I've ever used feels hollow, like it's full of air.

That's how mice should be, it takes very little electronics to get a mouse to work, so the ergonomics should result in mostly empty space unless its filled with something to make it artificially heavier.

Logitech knows people will make purchases on ignorance so they purposefully design their mice with such filler in order to be heavier even though a lighter mouse, at least by default, is actually better. A heavier mouse will only encourage fatigue to set in faster, although it could help in increasing precision control. For instance, their G500 mouse, without any of its extra weights, is heavier than Razer's wireless Mamba mouse with its battery pack. Why not make it lighter and allow the extra weights to do their job? Because when customers play with the mouse in store they'll naturally associate the heftier G500 as being higher quality because it feels sturdier.

but my Logitech G9 and G500 have been the most solid mice I've ever used.

I'd agree in that I haven't had any more troubles from any of my Logitech mice than I have from any of my other mice whether they be Razer or Microsoft or SteelSeries, etc.

And I would also like to point out that the G9/G9x includes a grip coated with the same rubberized material that Razer uses on their mice, and that Logitech was also the first to introduce the braided cord that has since become the industry standard.

Doesn't Razer still use the Twin-Eye sensor as well? There are tons of complaints about those things, especially since it's used in the R.A.T. 7, which supposedly has amazing build quality otherwise.

I think its a problem that is blown out of proportion, and is exacerbated by people using higher DPIs than they should be, at least in my experienced opinion. Using a reasonable DPI the problem won't be noticed at all, and only those who frequently lift the mouse will ever have a chance at noticing it.

Heck, even my G9x and Xai without the twin eye sensor will exhibit a similar phenomenon where the cursor will drift up but will move back down to roughly the same spot when the mouse is lifted up and set back down.

I had a program at some point in time which allowed for easy patching of USB drivers to change the polling rate. I don't remember if it made a noticeable difference though.

I know I used an easy to do patch back in my XP days when using my IMO1.1 and MX518, but it wasn't compatible with Vista x64, although I had long since moved on to mice that officially supported higher polling rates out of the box and/or with drivers or hardware switches.

Although I think I saw a link on another thread for a Win7 polling rate patcher, so if you want I could go try and find it, but I otherwise agree with you that it isn't too big of a deal. A bit bigger for gaming than it is for CAD, but it is one of the few cons of the MX518 regardless. Not a big con but just one of the few I know of.

I don't know either; I'd have to check. Probably not this expensive though.

Awesome, you just narrowed down the potentials to 100% of what I might have recommended before.

 

[herm0016]

i have a 3d navigator from logitech that is absolutely awesome. has 2 mappable buttons too.

beyond that i am very happy with my logitech mediaplay. i really like the extra buttons and the scroll wheel works very well. I use catia and UG. I have never really worked with pro/e before.

 

[0roo0roo]

So Razer uses what? Expensive plastic buttons? Because the buttons are plastic, they just have a spray-on rubber coating. Logitech's middle scroll isn't a problem because its cheap, its because it's over engineered with hyper-scrolling and tilt features. Also this thread is about CAD, not gaming.

hyperscrolling is not filler, it is awesome.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

hyperscrolling is not filler, it is awesome.

When I referred to filler, I was referring to the intentional use of heavier/extraneous materials (not including the optional weights) put into the mouse to make it feel heavier and thus more substantial...maybe you should actually read my post.

And while you might think hyperscrolling is awesome, its crap for gaming. No other gaming mouse I know of has attempted to match it, and just about everyone I know who owns one of the Logitech mouses with the problematic scroll wheel/middle mouse complains about it and thinks of it as a con relative to every other gaming mouse and would give up hyperscrolling and/or tilt for a more functional middle mouse click in a heart beat.

But while its crap for gaming, it can be awesome for other things. My point about the scroll wheel's middle mouse being a problem was my theorizing that the reason the middle mouse button isn't up to par is because of the fact that it has hyperscroll and tilt and thus the middle mouse button suffers, and it seems obvious to me that the OP cares more about having a functional middle mouse button than he does about hyperscroll or tilt.

 

[0roo0roo]

Jesus, man get a grip, i know you said over engineered but it meant the same thing.

putting weights in mice has been standard for a long time. no one leaves hyperscrolling on in games, thats why it can be turned off.

wheel buttons are always crap, if you think rapidly mashing a wheel is a good idea you are just bonkers.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Jesus, man get a grip, i know you said over engineered but it meant the same thing.

you tied two different sections of my post into your own deluded conclusion of what you thought I was trying to say. When I referred to the scroll wheel on a mouse like the G9x as over engineered I was strictly referring to the fact that it has an attrocious middle mouse click, and the only acceptable excuse for its terrible performance is that it has extra features like tilt and hyperscrolling. While such features can be a legitimate asset for web browsing or spread sheets, its something gamers never asked for and thus over engineered is a fitting description when considering its employment in a gaming mouse design - they screwed up middle mouse click at the cost of adding in extra stuff gamers don't use or care for. I'm not sure how better to describe it...

putting weights in mice has been standard for a long time.

Just so we're clear, I'm not talking about the optional weights, I really don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is Logitech artificially increasing the weight of their mouse with non-optional weight to give it heftier feel to make people think its a more substantially built product at first impression in a store. Its ridiculous how the G500 is such a lardo mouse weighing more than a wireless mouse from Razer with its battery pack, and this is before putting in any of the extra weights for the G500. There's no legitimate reason to make a mouse with an optional weights feature to be so heavy by default.

no one leaves hyperscrolling on in games, thats why it can be turned off.

I think you're missing the point, if hyperscolling and/or tilt is screwing up the middle mouse button, turning off hyperscrolling doesn't change the fact that middle mouse is crap. The scroll wheel/middle mouse was perfect on my MX510 and MX518, give me that on a gaming mouse like the G9x if they can't design mouse wheel that doesn't compromise middle mouse for hyperscrolling and/or tilt.

If they can design a mouse wheel that has hyperscrolling and tilt and still have excellent middle mouse performance then I will be all for it.

wheel buttons are always crap, if you think rapidly mashing a wheel is a good idea you are just bonkers.

You're obviously settling for wheels with crappy middle mouse, because they're not always crap, the middle mouse button on all my mice except the G9x are excellent for use in games (including my MX series Logitech mice), whether its knifing in BC2 or scoping in to snipe in L4D. The mouse wheel on my 3 button mice like the Salmosa/Abyssus/Kinzu have to be excellent because of their lack of buttons, and they definitely deliver.

 

[Modelworks]

I do 3d daily so I too had the middle mouse button issue. I tried gaming mouse of all sorts and ended up with sore fingers. The mouse I ended up with and have used now for about 2 years is one of the cheapest mice you can buy and still have decent quality Logitech MX310.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16826104136

Only problem is finding one in stock somewhere.

 

[Throckmorton]

BTW, you really want to torture yourself? Use one of the Logitech laptop mice that uses the wheel click to switch between notch/smooth scrolling. The middle click is a small button behind the wheel. I'm using one right now for ArcGIS, scrolling around with that tiny button.

 

[Jeff7]

Hm....so I'm not quite seeing a consensus here on a mouse with a good and proper middle-click. I'm not too keen to use the left/right "bump" buttons on the scrollwheel, as I can't seem to keep the mouse still properly when using them, and Pro/E is really particular about the effect of cursor movement while the middle button is pressed. And, at least with Logitech's SetPoint software...I've not had good luck with it, at least not for at work. The software will randomly "forget" the custom button assignments, or will fail to detect the mouse completely, even though it shows up normally in Device Manager. (It did this on WinXP and Win7, so I don't think this is a reinstall-to-fix type of problem.)

I'll also have to look up this "hyperscrolling" thing.


I don't suppose any of the chain stores (Best Buy, Staples, Office max) have a good selection of mice on display to try out?


Concerning gaming mice vs CAD....I'd think that a mouse that's good for gaming would be good for CAD: The ability to move to a point on the screen quickly and accurately is a plus, as is a mouse comfortable enough to allow the user to endure marathon CAD/gaming sessions.


But from reading around, I'm kind of wary of wireless - too much talk about lag, and random signal cut-outs. (And the wireless mouse I've got at work right now pretty much sucks, in every possible way a wireless device can suck: Lag, short battery life, signal dropouts, device lockups....bleh. The wireless keyboard on the other hand - no problems at all.)


Other info: I work with 3D models in Pro/E, and I usually do the 2D drawings as well - I'm pretty much the Pro/E and mechanical engineering user/expert where I work. I've seen some of the attempts at dimensioned drawings that some others there have made in the past. Let's just say, they would not have received passing grades, had they been submitted as a college-level homework assignment.
So I futz with the 3d design, from concept to prototype to production-ready, and then make the drawings which become gospel for the production department.

I do 3d daily so I too had the middle mouse button issue. I tried gaming mouse of all sorts and ended up with sore fingers. The mouse I ended up with and have used now for about 2 years is one of the cheapest mice you can buy and still have decent quality Logitech MX310.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16826104136

Only problem is finding one in stock somewhere.

"This is a great product. We should probably stop making it."



I'd love to consider an Evoluent type of "verticalmouse," as they are very comfortable to use, in terms of requiring less wrist contortion. But I've found them to have one glaring problem: Pressing on any button usually results in moving the entire mouse, and thus cursor, in the direction of the pressure.

 

[0roo0roo]

i'm surprised your company just doesnt' buy several to try out if you are doing cad. what a cheap company.

 

[Jeff7]

i'm surprised your company just doesnt' buy several to try out if you are doing cad. what a cheap company.

We deal a lot with governments and municipalities, which are currently damn near bankrupt, so business is about 30-40% lower than it was 2 years ago. It's yet to show signs of recovery, and we've already had at least 4 rounds of layoffs in the past year. It seems to have leveled off though. So money's not something we have a lot of.:\

I'll be glad if I can get a mouse that's $50-$60.

 

[IcePickFreak]

FWIW, I do CAD work as well and work at home on my gaming rig from time to time. I have a Razer Copperhead that's 4+ years old and it still works great. Middle-click panning isn't an issue at all (the scroll-wheel click is perfect IMO, but may be biased since I've been using it so long) and the two additional thumb buttons are mappable without issue. Even the on-the-fly sensitivity works well as I can crank it up on large assemblies and zoomed-out views, and knock it down if I'm working in a tight area. Works great in conjuction with the "3DConnexion" space mouse I picked up for like $40 some years back.

 

[gorobei]

i do 3d modeling/animation, a good middle mouse button mouse is getting harder to find. most of the higher end MS and Logitech scroll wheels have less than stellar middle clicks. the left and right scroll clicks just make things worse.

you are slightly better off looking at gaming mice in that most of them dont bother with the side scroll on the wheel. the laser dpi resolution wont make much difference. the main thing to look for is the shape. if your app requires simultaneous lmb+mmb+drag then you will be using your thumb and ringfinger/pinky to pinch the mouse to control movement. if the mouse is too flat/wide, it will force your hand to use more effort to maintain the pinch and will lead to more fatigue.

 

[Throckmorton]

FWIW, I do CAD work as well and work at home on my gaming rig from time to time. I have a Razer Copperhead that's 4+ years old and it still works great. Middle-click panning isn't an issue at all (the scroll-wheel click is perfect IMO, but may be biased since I've been using it so long) and the two additional thumb buttons are mappable without issue. Even the on-the-fly sensitivity works well as I can crank it up on large assemblies and zoomed-out views, and knock it down if I'm working in a tight area. Works great in conjuction with the "3DConnexion" space mouse I picked up for like $40 some years back.

I'm surprised more people don't use gaming mice for work. The sensitivity adjustment is really useful for any task where you need more precision.

 

[Jeff7]

I'm surprised more people don't use gaming mice for work. The sensitivity adjustment is really useful for any task where you need more precision.

And they seem more geared for ergonomics, so you can game for 8 hours straight.

Too many "office/business" mice seem to be crafted for a hand shape that doesn't exist.