Buying an F Body

[mwmorph]

I'm looking to get a 5 speed 305/350ci Camaro or Firebird, looking at a max of maybe $3K, there seem to be some gems under that price range that look like they've been cared for. Reason is I can't keep driving my DD since it is a huge waste of $(maintenance, gas(14.7mpg), insurance, etc) and I'd like something a little nostalgic, cheap and easy enough to tinker with.

I've always liked the muscle cars and the Z28/IROC-Z/Trans Am are my prototypical muscle cars.

Anyways, does anyone have any good resources for me, checklists, common problems, anything maintenance wise I should check up on?

I figure the Chevy SB should be pretty much indestructible and moddable and the tranny should be pretty much up to the task but I'm no F-Body expert. I've done a lot of work on older (late 80s) carbed and TBI cars when I used to work in a shop so I think I can handle it, but is there anyone that knows more about those cars than I do that can give me some pointers, tips and warnings?

I'm also open to other suggestions, I just need something cheap, RWD and manual. Fuel economy isn't an issue since anything above 14.7 mixed would be a step up.

Cars I'v considered
Mustang 4.9L - Horribly ugly before '94, notchback even more so
240SX - seems every single one is either auto, high mileage, molested by ricers or a combination of the 3
Miata - I'll freeze to death in IL, it got to -17F with windchill last year
AWD DSM - No thanks mid 90s dodge/mitsu reliability, needs to be a DD

 

[Vette73]

You have 2 choices if you want a 5speed manual

1. 305 with TBI (Throttle Body Injection) Looks like a carb with F/I in the middle
2. 305 with TPI (Tune Port Injection) Is a full F/I system with 1 injector per Cyl


The 350 was a Auto only car, the 5 speed (T-5) could not handle the power(torque).


Make sure you get a 1989 or newwer. 88 and older were not a "complete" as the 89's and up. Also these cars are not the easiest to maintain (TPI) and can get real costly fast (like any older sports car). The TBI is pretty much a truck motor so its easy to keep up but will not power like a TPI car.

If you get one I would only do the basic upgrades to the motor but look into the suspension system as handling really makes a car better IMO for the street. No point of going fast if you have to slow down to much in the corners.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

One thing to consider is that if you're planning on hopping it up, check the emission laws in your state to see what you can get away with. Throwing a junkyard LT1+T56 might be an option in if the smog police aren't going to come around and notice that you're having a good time.

 

[mwmorph]

I think I was misinterpreted, I don't really care too much about performance gains, anything I will do will be mild at most. Maybe new headers and exhaust, things like that. I'm pretty busy and I just want to get it cleaned up and running perfectly.

What was wrong with the TPI motors? I don't mind the TBI since it still has that sweet V8 burble on decel (I haven't bought a non V8 since my 2nd car) but I would prefer the TPI for the extra power.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: mwmorph
I think I was misinterpreted, I don't really care too much about performance gains, anything I will do will be mild at most. Maybe new headers and exhaust, things like that. I'm pretty busy and I just want to get it cleaned up and running perfectly.

What was wrong with the TPI motors? I don't mind the TBI since it still has that sweet V8 burble on decel (I haven't bought a non V8 since my 2nd car) but I would prefer the TPI for the extra power.

Nothing really wrong in one area but lots of little things come up and most techs don;t have a lot of exp on them like and some other techs from that time frame. The odl OBD1 system would not pick up on a lot of problems so if you did not know what to look for you could spend a lot of money and time trying to fix it and not find the problem.

The 1 biggest thing I see is the cars ran hot. So people would run wires everywhere to jimmy rig the rad fans to stay on. The problem is they short out other items and mess the system up. In the end when i saw that i rip it all out and show the person all they have to do is ground 1 wire and it would have done what they wanted without messing up relays and such.

 

[rezinn]

http://www.thirdgen.org/

 

[DougK62]

You aren't going to find a good 305 TPI 5spd for less than $3k. They aren't very common and have a sort of cult following. That said, if you can snag one they're an absolute hoot to drive, and just as fast as the 350 TPI auto cars if in the right hands. You should be able to find a 305 TBI 5spd car easily enough, but they're quite meh.

 

[AdamK47]

How about a 1989 Turbo TA?

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: AdamK47
How about a 1989 Turbo TA?

That's a hell of a car, but I doubt I could afford it.

 

[alkemyst]

while it's hard to find a nice 240sx (took me roughly half a year), they are out there but they aren't cheap usually.

Search up LS1 240sx on youtube though if you want to see my plans.

While there are a lot of kids out in these cars there are a lot of older professionals that know this chassis (~2300-2700lbs, ~50/50 weight dist, suspension/braking shared with even the Skyline GTR) for what it can become and build impressive vehicles.

I went a more expensive route buying as low a mileage (70k) and as mint condition as possible. I then gutted the interior and pretty much replaced every clip/fastener...added some deadening...removed unneeded parts and replaced any piece that needed it.

I then did the suspension (coilovers, bracing) and brakes (Skyline R33 GTST front and rear). Finally some minor power mods that will mostly be used for the next engine.

You should be able to still find an earlier hatchback in great condition for $3k. It's not going to be a quick car. For about $2000 - $2500 you can swap a 200-220HP SR20DET into it if you do the work.

$3k is a tough budget to find a fast car in good condition....there are a lot of buyers at that mark.

 

[joesmoke]

in my experience those 305 camaros are weak as shit. get a newer camaro, or a 5.0.

 

[AdamK47]

Originally posted by: joesmoke
in my experience those 305 camaros are weak as shit. get a newer camaro, or a 5.0.

A 305 is a 5.0 ya know?

 

[bobross419]

Originally posted by: AdamK47

Originally posted by: joesmoke
in my experience those 305 camaros are weak as shit. get a newer camaro, or a 5.0.

A 305 is a 5.0 ya know?

5.0 generally refers to a Mustang as the Chevy 305 provided such lackluster performance, especially compared to the 5.0 in the Mustangs.


**Edit: Too slow chorb!

**Edit 2: Beat me on the second edit though =p

 

[chorb]

I think he meant a 5.0 mustang motor.

edit:
bobross beat me to it

edit 2:
damit he beat me on the edit too!

 

[joesmoke]

^
wat dey said

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: bobross419

Originally posted by: AdamK47

Originally posted by: joesmoke
in my experience those 305 camaros are weak as shit. get a newer camaro, or a 5.0.

A 305 is a 5.0 ya know?

5.0 generally refers to a Mustang as the Chevy 305 provided such lackluster performance, especially compared to the 5.0 in the Mustangs.


**Edit: Too slow chorb!

QFT...leave it to the nerds here though to pull semantics.

Almost anytime you hear he's got a '5.0' on the street it's almost always an earily mustang.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: bobross419

Originally posted by: AdamK47

Originally posted by: joesmoke
in my experience those 305 camaros are weak as shit. get a newer camaro, or a 5.0.

A 305 is a 5.0 ya know?

5.0 generally refers to a Mustang as the Chevy 305 provided such lackluster performance, especially compared to the 5.0 in the Mustangs.


**Edit: Too slow chorb!

Actually that is not true, about the 305 being weak. A 305 in a 1991 Camaro with Tune Port made 235 hp at 4200 rpm and 300 lb/ft @3200 rpm. A 1991 Mustang with a 5.0 made 225 hp at 4200rpm and 300 lb/ft @ 3200rpm.
So the 305 made 10hp more from the factory then the 5.0 mustang the same year. Now the older TBI and Carb 305s were weaker but they also did not have roller cams and other goodies like the later 5.0's and 305 TPI motors.

In 1993 the 5.0 motor was then rated at 205hp and 275 ft/lb so even less then a 1991 305 chevy.

 

[joesmoke]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: bobross419

Originally posted by: AdamK47

Originally posted by: joesmoke
in my experience those 305 camaros are weak as shit. get a newer camaro, or a 5.0.

A 305 is a 5.0 ya know?

5.0 generally refers to a Mustang as the Chevy 305 provided such lackluster performance, especially compared to the 5.0 in the Mustangs.


**Edit: Too slow chorb!

Actually that is not true, about the 305 being weak. A 305 in a 1991 Camaro with Tune Port made 235 hp at 4200 rpm and 300 lb/ft @3200 rpm. A 1991 Mustang with a 5.0 made 225 hp at 4200rpm and 300 lb/ft @ 3200rpm.
So the 305 made 10hp more from the factory then the 5.0 mustang the same year. Now the older TBI and Carb 305s were weaker but they also did not have roller cams and other goodies like the later 5.0's and 305 TPI motors.

I'm open to arguement. I'll check into this, but I'm almost POSITIVE those ar the 5.7 numbers from the IROC-Z. Pretty sure the 305 never made more than like 170-180.

edit: u be right. dunno, all rs's i raced on the streets were easy wins. maybe its just that fox-bodies are lighter?

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: joesmoke

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: bobross419

Originally posted by: AdamK47

Originally posted by: joesmoke
in my experience those 305 camaros are weak as shit. get a newer camaro, or a 5.0.

A 305 is a 5.0 ya know?

5.0 generally refers to a Mustang as the Chevy 305 provided such lackluster performance, especially compared to the 5.0 in the Mustangs.


**Edit: Too slow chorb!

Actually that is not true, about the 305 being weak. A 305 in a 1991 Camaro with Tune Port made 235 hp at 4200 rpm and 300 lb/ft @3200 rpm. A 1991 Mustang with a 5.0 made 225 hp at 4200rpm and 300 lb/ft @ 3200rpm.
So the 305 made 10hp more from the factory then the 5.0 mustang the same year. Now the older TBI and Carb 305s were weaker but they also did not have roller cams and other goodies like the later 5.0's and 305 TPI motors.

I'm open to arguement. I'll check into this, but I'm almost POSITIVE those ar the 5.7 numbers from the IROC-Z. Pretty sure the 305 never made more than like 170-180.

edit: u be right. dunno, all rs's i raced on the streets were easy wins. maybe its just that fox-bodies are lighter?

No the RS's only came with 305 TBI motors for a V8, not tune port if I remember correct.

RS = 2.8/3.1 or extra to get a 305 TBI V8
Z28 = 305 TBI or extra to get a 305 TPI or 350 TPI

As I said beofre the 305TBI was nothing more then a truck motor. Made less then 200hp, so I agree those are weak from the factory. But IMO easier to work on and mod.

 

[Tbirdkid]

just say to yourself when you get your hair cut, "business in the front, party in the back..."

 

[bobross419]

Originally posted by: Tbirdkid
just say to yourself when you get your hair cut, "business in the front, party in the back..."

You are telling OP to get an El Camino? God man, why would you do such a thing. Sure they are sweet cars, but to have to put up with mullet jokes?

 

[Demon-Xanth]

For 1989:
The IROC-Zs were still available with the 170 hp (127 kW) TBI 305, the 195 hp (145 kW) TPI 305, or the 230 hp (172 kW) TPI 350.

Other years showed the TPI 305 at 215HP.

Although the HP was low, the torque was still 275-300 fun loving LBft

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
For 1989:
The IROC-Zs were still available with the 170 hp (127 kW) TBI 305, the 195 hp (145 kW) TPI 305, or the 230 hp (172 kW) TPI 350.

Other years showed the TPI 305 at 215HP.

Although the HP was low, the torque was still 275-300 fun loving LBft

Pretty mod-friendly as well, particularly the 350.

 

[bobross419]

The reason for the (perceived) Mustang 5.0's success over the Camaro's 305 is probably due to the cylinder dimensions. While the 305 has 3ci more displacement than the 5.0, the 5.0 has a much better bore:stroke ratio allowing for a higher revving motor. The 5.0 comes in with a 3in stroke x 4in bore and the 305 has a 3.48in stroke x 3.736in bore. Shorter Stroke + Bigger Bore = Higher Revs. This most like allowed the aftermarket folks to greatly increase the capabilities of the 5.0 over the 305 in the high-rpm, high-hp realm. Additionally, the presence of the Chevy 350 probably also played into this. The Ford folks didn't have such easy access to larger displacement engines as the Chevy 350. Instead of being forced to focus the aftermarket on a single engine (5.0) the Chevy aftermarket folks were able to continue development on the Chevy 350; because of the tried and true saying "There is no replacement for displacement [except forced induction]", many Camaro owners opted to just stick the larger Chevy 350 in instead of dealing with the 305.


Speaking of which. You could always get the 305 and do a 350 swap pretty easily

 

[Arkaign]

Yeah, what Bob said. Get a 305, fix up the whole car a bit at a time (seats, dash, steering wheel, brakes, wheels, paint, etc), then save up for a crate motor + wiring harness + new rear end + new tranny. Win/win. You could eventually make a show car out of it, or at the very least a ~10 sec drag car without breaking the bank.