Bush's Fantastic Economy:Americans declaring Bankruptcy, contemplating suicide, can't compete with India at 1/6 of wages

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dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Oh OK, December lasts for 3 years, what planet did I land on with that kind of rotation?
3 years?? :confused:

2003 was the best year for the housing/builder/construction/real estate/mortgage industries on record EVER. Before that the best year was 2002, and before that the best year was 2001. I don't know what planet you live on either, but if you're implying that the housing industry has been down for the past 3 years, then you sure as hell don't live on earth.
Sure 2003 ended a little soft -- there was good deal of uncertainty regarding rates. But mortgage applications are already way up since the 1st of the year.
The bottom has hardly dropped out of the housing market. There was just a little welcomed shake-up that got rid of a lot of the dead weight. Otherwise, rates are still great, buyers are still eager and motivated, and my loans process much quicker than they did during the "boom" last year.
No one is arguing that they aren't building houses like mad. The banks are giving away money to Developers. Where are all these "Eager" buyers you speak of? If they existed there wouldn't be half empty subdivisions.

 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
49,420
11,637
136
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
No one is arguing that they aren't building houses like mad. The banks are giving away money to Developers. Where are all these "Eager" buyers you speak of? If they existed there wouldn't be half empty subdivisions.
Not a lot of half-empty subdivisions around here, although they never fill those all at once you know. Depending on the size, location, and price range (higher takes longer) of a subdivision, it is common for it to take years for one to sell completely. This is why they're often put up in "phases" or built-to-order once a buyer is found. It could be that developers in Georgia are overbuilding for the actual demand in the area.

OTOH, it could be because of Georgia's assinine lender-unfriendly mortgage laws. I dunno.
They're selling them as fast they build them here in Oregon (and Southwest Washington state) despite having "the worst economy in the nation".
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
No one is arguing that they aren't building houses like mad. The banks are giving away money to Developers. Where are all these "Eager" buyers you speak of? If they existed there wouldn't be half empty subdivisions.
Not a lot of half-empty subdivisions around here, although they never fill those all at once you know. Depending on the size, location, and price range (higher takes longer) of a subdivision, it is common for it to take years for one to sell completely. This is why they're often put up in "phases" or built-to-order once a buyer is found. It could be that developers in Georgia are overbuilding for the actual demand in the area.

OTOH, it could be because of Georgia's assinine lender-unfriendly mortgage laws. I dunno.
They're selling them as fast they build them here in Oregon (and Southwest Washington state) despite having "the worst economy in the nation".
I'm a little glad they are overbuilt and not filled, they did all this on little 2 lane Country roads. When these things do fill up it will be pure gridlock to try and get around.


 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
I really hope housing prices collapse, because I plan to buy a house in a few years. Which is why I might vote for Bush. Deficits -> higher interest rates -> lower demand for housing -> lower house prices. I'll buy when interest rates are high, refinance when they are low ;)
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Awww 2 Million lazy A$$es to lose jobless benefits:

1-29-2004 About 2 Million to Use Up Jobless Benefits

"In no other January-June period on record have so many unemployed workers exhausted their regular benefits without qualifying for additional weeks of unemployment assistance,"

Republicans who control Congress say a third extension of the program providing 13 weeks of emergency benefits isn't necessary with unemployment declining.

 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
49,420
11,637
136
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Awww 2 Million lazy A$$es to lose jobless benefits:

1-29-2004 About 2 Million to Use Up Jobless Benefits

"In no other January-June period on record have so many unemployed workers exhausted their regular benefits without qualifying for additional weeks of unemployment assistance,"

Republicans who control Congress say a third extension of the program providing 13 weeks of emergency benefits isn't necessary with unemployment declining.
Shall we keep them on unemployment forever? Shall unemployment become welfare?

This is how I look at the unemployment issue. I'm 32 years old now. I have been working non-stop, except for a short 3 month period when I broke my ankle when I was 22, since I got my first paper route when I was 11.
When the industry I work in suffered cutbacks from high interest rates in 2000, I went into business for self for a while and still made money.

There is no excuse for a healthy able-bodied person to not be working in America.
 

dirtboy

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,745
1
81
Originally posted by: SuperTool
I really hope housing prices collapse, because I plan to buy a house in a few years. Which is why I might vote for Bush. Deficits -> higher interest rates -> lower demand for housing -> lower house prices. I'll buy when interest rates are high, refinance when they are low ;)
There are instances where housing prices dip, but they usually hold their value very well. If you think that a 500,000 home is going to drop to 250,000, you're out of your mind.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
17,961
94
91
There is no excuse for a healthy able-bodied person to not be working in America.
Yep. In the past year, I've read a gob of articles or seen news accounts of personal stories on the boob tube about unemployed persons and their 'plight', which were intended to be sympathetic but didn't always have the intended effect.

Virtually every one of them went something like this:

"It has been over a year since Larry lost his job as a financial analyst. Having spent his life savings, maxed his credit cards, and exhausted his unemployment benefits, Larry is forced to move in with his retired parents. In that time, Larry has looked almost non-stop for employment as a financial analyst in tight job market that saw the financial sector hit particularly hard."

Now I totally understand why someone - anyone - who lost a job doing some particular thing would initially look exclusively for similar or identical work for the first month or two, three at the most. Perfectly reasonable.

But when its been a freaking year and one hasn't found anything that meets one's lofty expectations, its time to let go of one's notions of being "too good" for other jobs and take whatever the hell one can get!

After losing my job performing a skilled role in an operating room at a busy Level 1 Trauma Center, a field I had went to school for and worked in for several years, I took an unskilled position in a dirty warehouse stocking auto parts for less than half the pay and crappy benefits. But it sure beat no pay or benefits and sinking deeper and deeper into debt while I waited for job that is 'worthy' of my grace and presence.

Most of these people inflict far greater financial harm on themselves by refusing to "settle" for a lesser job. Oh my, I did not know that being unemployed and mounting debt afforded one the luxury of being so choosey.
 

amok

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,342
0
0
Originally posted by: tcsenter
There is no excuse for a healthy able-bodied person to not be working in America.
Yep. In the past year, I've read a gob of articles or seen news accounts of personal stories on the boob tube about unemployed persons and their 'plight', which were intended to be sympathetic but didn't always have the intended effect.

Virtually every one of them went something like this:

"It has been over a year since Larry lost his job as a financial analyst. Having spent his life savings, maxed his credit cards, and exhausted his unemployment benefits, Larry is forced to move in with his retired parents. In that time, Larry has looked almost non-stop for employment as a financial analyst in tight job market that saw the financial sector hit particularly hard."

Now I totally understand why someone - anyone - who lost a job doing some particular thing would initially look exclusively for similar or identical work for the first month or two, three at the most. Perfectly reasonable.

But when its been a freaking year and one hasn't found anything that meets one's lofty expectations, its time to let go of one's notions of being "too good" for other jobs and take whatever the hell one can get!

After losing my job performing a skilled role in an operating room at a busy Level 1 Trauma Center, a field I had went to school for and worked in for several years, I took an unskilled position in a dirty warehouse stocking auto parts for less than half the pay and crappy benefits. But it sure beat no pay or benefits and sinking deeper and deeper into debt while I waited for job that is 'worthy' of my grace and presence.

Most of these people inflict far greater financial harm on themselves by refusing to "settle" for a lesser job. Oh my, I did not know that being unemployed and mounting debt afforded one the luxury of being so choosey.
Well said, tcsenter. Any income is better than none, and stocking shelves doesn't stop someone from applying to jobs in their old fields, or to higher paying jobs in new fields while they wait. While I support certain safety nets for workers, I don't support people sitting on their arses for months waiting for their old job or one just like it. Get out and work a crap job while waiting.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: amok
Originally posted by: tcsenter
There is no excuse for a healthy able-bodied person to not be working in America.
Yep. In the past year, I've read a gob of articles or seen news accounts of personal stories on the boob tube about unemployed persons and their 'plight', which were intended to be sympathetic but didn't always have the intended effect.

Virtually every one of them went something like this:

"It has been over a year since Larry lost his job as a financial analyst. Having spent his life savings, maxed his credit cards, and exhausted his unemployment benefits, Larry is forced to move in with his retired parents. In that time, Larry has looked almost non-stop for employment as a financial analyst in tight job market that saw the financial sector hit particularly hard."

Now I totally understand why someone - anyone - who lost a job doing some particular thing would initially look exclusively for similar or identical work for the first month or two, three at the most. Perfectly reasonable.

But when its been a freaking year and one hasn't found anything that meets one's lofty expectations, its time to let go of one's notions of being "too good" for other jobs and take whatever the hell one can get!

After losing my job performing a skilled role in an operating room at a busy Level 1 Trauma Center, a field I had went to school for and worked in for several years, I took an unskilled position in a dirty warehouse stocking auto parts for less than half the pay and crappy benefits. But it sure beat no pay or benefits and sinking deeper and deeper into debt while I waited for job that is 'worthy' of my grace and presence.

Most of these people inflict far greater financial harm on themselves by refusing to "settle" for a lesser job. Oh my, I did not know that being unemployed and mounting debt afforded one the luxury of being so choosey.
Well said, tcsenter. Any income is better than none, and stocking shelves doesn't stop someone from applying to jobs in their old fields, or to higher paying jobs in new fields while they wait. While I support certain safety nets for workers, I don't support people sitting on their arses for months waiting for their old job or one just like it. Get out and work a crap job while waiting.
Well said.
 

dirtboy

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,745
1
81
Originally posted by: amok

Well said, tcsenter. Any income is better than none, and stocking shelves doesn't stop someone from applying to jobs in their old fields, or to higher paying jobs in new fields while they wait. While I support certain safety nets for workers, I don't support people sitting on their arses for months waiting for their old job or one just like it. Get out and work a crap job while waiting.
Very true. I read an article in our local paper a couple weeks ago that featured executives that had lost their high paying jobs. None of these people were whining, complaining or blaming Bush. Each of them took very low paying jobs, because that is all that was available to people that were normally overqualified. Their jobs ranged from cashiers, to clothes salemen and even taxi drivers. Each said that they were confident that they would find a job that paid what they were used to and were looking for jobs all over the nation. Many took jobs that included weekend hours in order to get a couple weekdays off in order to continue their job search. Many downscaled their lifestyles in order to have money to fly to interviews or do whatever they need.

I was impressed. All we here about on this forum is whining, crying and how things are unfair. Meanwhile these very successful people were out doing what needed to be done and were working hard to getting their high paying jobs back. That is certainly not the attitude shared here from the masses who expect jobs to be handed to them like a government entitlement program.
 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,510
2
81
There's a lot of talk about the idea that people should be willing to take a lower position when unemployed. I entirely agree with this but I think people are missing a key point. Taking a lower position helps the individual that's unemployed by providing an income but it is no cure for unemployment. The reason for this is because an over qualified individual taking a lower position has the effect of taking a job away from someone else who is lower on the qualification ladder. There may be some small benefit to the economy by hiring the more qualified person but the loss/gain analysis is mostly a wash since in many low level positions advanced qualifications do not increase productivity (that is to say, a degree of any kind is useless while ringing up a cash register). The number of total jobs in the economy is not increased (or decreased) by an over qualified person taking a lower position.

And also, it's not so easy for an over qualified person to even get a lower level position. Employers aren't eager to get people with college degrees to ring up cash registers. I know this fact first hand.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
49,420
11,637
136
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: amok

Well said, tcsenter. Any income is better than none, and stocking shelves doesn't stop someone from applying to jobs in their old fields, or to higher paying jobs in new fields while they wait. While I support certain safety nets for workers, I don't support people sitting on their arses for months waiting for their old job or one just like it. Get out and work a crap job while waiting.
Very true. I read an article in our local paper a couple weeks ago that featured executives that had lost their high paying jobs. None of these people were whining, complaining or blaming Bush. Each of them took very low paying jobs, because that is all that was available to people that were normally overqualified. Their jobs ranged from cashiers, to clothes salemen and even taxi drivers. Each said that they were confident that they would find a job that paid what they were used to and were looking for jobs all over the nation. Many took jobs that included weekend hours in order to get a couple weekdays off in order to continue their job search. Many downscaled their lifestyles in order to have money to fly to interviews or do whatever they need.

I was impressed. All we here about on this forum is whining, crying and how things are unfair. Meanwhile these very successful people were out doing what needed to be done and were working hard to getting their high paying jobs back. That is certainly not the attitude shared here from the masses who expect jobs to be handed to them like a government entitlement program.
That is because success (in all things) is a mindset, and not a condition. Those who have that mindset are capable of anything, including clawing back from poverty to riches more than once in their lifetime. Those who don't will never have anything, regardless of how much they are given.
As for the whiners on this forum, they refuse to believe that such abillity and fortitude is possible in a human being. And were they to discover it, they would only seek to destroy it.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: zephyrprime
There's a lot of talk about the idea that people should be willing to take a lower position when unemployed. I entirely agree with this but I think people are missing a key point. Taking a lower position helps the individual that's unemployed by providing an income but it is no cure for unemployment. The reason for this is because an over qualified individual taking a lower position has the effect of taking a job away from someone else who is lower on the qualification ladder. There may be some small benefit to the economy by hiring the more qualified person but the loss/gain analysis is mostly a wash since in many low level positions advanced qualifications do not increase productivity (that is to say, a degree of any kind is useless while ringing up a cash register). The number of total jobs in the economy is not increased (or decreased) by an over qualified person taking a lower position.

And also, it's not so easy for an over qualified person to even get a lower level position. Employers aren't eager to get people with college degrees to ring up cash registers. I know this fact first hand.
No No No you got it all wrong, you heard your fellow AT Economy experts, it's perfectly fine for PhD's to be stocking the shelves at Walmart, it's best for the Economy and they will be making the highest wages they ever have by a penny.

 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
49,420
11,637
136
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
No No No you got it all wrong, you heard your fellow AT Economy experts, it's perfectly fine for PhD's to be stocking the shelves at Walmart, it's best for the Economy and they will be making the highest wages they ever have by a penny.
Just having a Ph.D. automatically entitles its holder to a high-paying job? :confused:

Degrees are certifications that provide their holders with more opportunities. No more. No less. They are not "get a high paying job free" cards.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
No No No you got it all wrong, you heard your fellow AT Economy experts, it's perfectly fine for PhD's to be stocking the shelves at Walmart, it's best for the Economy and they will be making the highest wages they ever have by a penny.
Just having a Ph.D. automatically entitles its holder to a high-paying job? :confused:

Degrees are certifications that provide their holders with more opportunities. No more. No less. They are not "get a high paying job free" cards.
No, of course not, everybody goes to school forever to get a PhD to work at Walmart for $6.50 that's the American Dream.


 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
1-29-2004 Bush in N.H. to Defend Economic Record

N.H. - President Bush, taking the New Hampshire political stage all for himself after the Democrats decamped, defended his economic record Thursday against his rivals' charges that he has favored the rich and let 2.3 million jobs slip away.

The topic of the economy is a weak spot for Bush among the independent voters who make up a sizable share of the electorate here. Four years ago, the state had an unemployment rate of around 2 percent. Now, though it remains well below the national level, the unemployment rate has increased to 4.1 percent as New Hampshire has shed 20,000 manufacturing jobs.

"You can tell I'm upbeat," Bush said, almost drowned out by cheers. "And I got reason to be. Not only do the numbers say things are looking pretty good, the American people are telling me that they feel pretty good."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep, the numbers are looking fantastic, who needs those 20,000 Manufacturing jobs or the rest of the 2.3 Millions jobs.
He's upbeat and everybody's feeling as good as James Brown.

 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
49,420
11,637
136
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
No, of course not, everybody goes to school forever to get a PhD to work at Walmart for $6.50 that's the American Dream.
LOL. Considering that I've had a pretty decent career thus far without the benefit of a Ph.D., I'd argue that if a holder of a Ph.D was in such a situation as to be working at Walmart for minimum wage, it would be their own damn fault.
However, I have never heard of such a thing happening. Let me know when you find one so I can laugh at them.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
No, of course not, everybody goes to school forever to get a PhD to work at Walmart for $6.50 that's the American Dream.
LOL. Considering that I've had a pretty decent career thus far without the benefit of a Ph.D., I'd argue that if a holder of a Ph.D was in such a situation as to be working at Walmart for minimum wage, it would be their own damn fault.
However, I have never heard of such a thing happening. Let me know when you find one so I can laugh at them.
You'll be laughing so hard you may need to go the hospital to prevent a rupture. I knwo many people with not one but two PhD's that have been out of work for over 2 years now. Some have picked up odd jobs just to survive like painting houses, selling Insurance etc.



 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
49,420
11,637
136
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
You'll be laughing so hard you may need to go the hospital to prevent a rupture. I knwo many people with not one but two PhD's that have been out of work for over 2 years now. Some have picked up odd jobs just to survive like painting houses, selling Insurance etc.
Hmm... well maybe I won't laugh too hard. But I would argue that many a man has made it rich by painting houses and selling insurance, so perhaps their challenge is that they see such things as "odd jobs" when they could be working on turning their hardship into good fortune.
 

BugsBunny1078

Banned
Jan 11, 2004
910
0
0
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: LunarRay
We need getting our manufacturing back and adopt a buy American attitude. Bring those jobs home Mr. Bush and do it now or you can be certain to be replaced in '04.
Do you know what would happen if we brought those manufacturing jobs home? Nobody would buy the product because it is too expensive. Our labor costs here are too high in comparison to the rest of the world. You wouldn't buy the products, because your dollar would go to the less expensive foreign product. Shipping jobs overseas does not hurt us. It actually helps. We buy stuff from them, they buy stuff from us. It's how a global economy works. A country with a low labor cost makes it a better place to manufacture, especially when you factor in the fact that many countries don't have such strict environment laws.
Tax the piss out of foreing made crap and then it isn't attractive or cheaper or going to be bought.Simple isn't it?
Also, I have to live in this world too and I don't want to have the environment ruined by factories even out of my country.We are breathing the same air as the people in taiwan afterall.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
17,961
94
91
There's a lot of talk about the idea that people should be willing to take a lower position when unemployed. I entirely agree with this but I think people are missing a key point. Taking a lower position helps the individual that's unemployed by providing an income but it is no cure for unemployment.
I would submit it is by definition a cure for unemployment. It might not be a cure for "Oh crap, I can't afford the payment on my BMW and I'm already four months behind because I refused to take a lesser job until I became desperate", but it most certainly is a cure for unemployment.
And also, it's not so easy for an over qualified person to even get a lower level position. Employers aren't eager to get people with college degrees to ring up cash registers. I know this fact first hand.
Valid concern. Which is why one would only list experience, education, and/or work history that would be relevant to the position being applied for.

It would be extremely unfortunate if one's parents permitted one to live such a luxurious extended childhood that they never actually held a job other than the one they secured in their field after leaving college. It wasn't such a big deal for me to take a job stocking auto parts in a filthy warehouse because I've done hard and dirty work before. No biggie, builds character.

But if one hasn't before, there's no time like the present!
 

dirtboy

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,745
1
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
You'll be laughing so hard you may need to go the hospital to prevent a rupture. I knwo many people with not one but two PhD's that have been out of work for over 2 years now. Some have picked up odd jobs just to survive like painting houses, selling Insurance etc.
Most likely this is just another McFabrication. Hard to believe someone who makes a misrepresentation every time they open their mouth or their fingers touch the keyboard.
 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,510
2
81
Valid concern. Which is why one would only list experience, education, and/or work history that would be relevant to the position being applied for.
But then there would be a big gap in employment and employers wonder about that.

I would submit it is by definition a cure for unemployment.
It a cure for one person's unemployment but it does not add even one more job into the economy.
 

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