"Bush Tax Cuts" - Whats the real impact?

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
I've heard so much about these tax cuts as if they were of dire importance. Honestly I didn't know what the actual numbers were and I'm still not positive. Maybe someone here could clarify. However, if Wikipedia happens to be right I have to say "WTF!" to the republicans. It looks like its a 0%-2% difference in taxes for the majority of Americans. Maybe there is more to it than that and I hope this thread brings it to light.

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobs_and_Growth_Tax_Relief_Reconciliation_Act_of_2003

Actual bill: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c108:1:./temp/~c108Oe4sOq::

I cannot interpret the actual bill cause I forgot to get my Law degree before reading....
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
You're looking at the wrong tax bill.

What you linked is the 2003 bill. What is set to expire is the 2001 bill. (Expires after 10 years, if it was the '03 bill we'd be talking about this in 2013, not now.)

Fern
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Probably the biggest effect will be when the capital gains tax rates go back up - people will be looking at doubling taxes on gains and the resultant sell-off will probably drop the market 5 or 10%, short term.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,493
3,159
136
The cuts were suppose to create jobs. You know... trickle down Reagan thing. It never did. Never has. We've had the cuts in place long enough to realize that not one job was created, as we were told would happen.

Soooo... they need to expire. Especially for the high income.
If we want to get the economy back on track, we MUST follow Clinton economics and NOT Reagan economics. Pretty simple. Do what worked in the past. NOT what failed.
 

drebo

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,035
1
81
Letting people keep more of their own money, no matter how jealous you are, is never a bad thing. Period, exclaimation point, full stop.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Growth_and_Tax_Relief_Reconciliation_Act_of_2001

Okay so the difference would then be 3%? Still looking for the actual bill,.....

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c107:H.R.1836:

I want to know what the bottom line effect is. Is this just posturing from the Republicans? Or will there be a real effect felt?

It is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more than just the federal tax rates. For the middle class the rate changes weren't the biggest impact, it was everything else.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
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Extending Bush's economic policies is a grand idea. Hell, let's make them permanent.
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
The cuts were suppose to create jobs. You know... trickle down Reagan thing. It never did. Never has. We've had the cuts in place long enough to realize that not one job was created, as we were told would happen.

Soooo... they need to expire. Especially for the high income.
If we want to get the economy back on track, we MUST follow Clinton economics and NOT Reagan economics. Pretty simple. Do what worked in the past. NOT what failed.
And exactly which Clinton economic policies are you talking about?
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
The impact to you can be estimated here:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/tax-cut-paycheck-impact/

This is gonna hurt if they expire...

Not if they they only expire for those that are in the top 1% of taxpayers.

The businessweek calculator is nice and all, but it is based on the assumption that they are automatically going to expire for all, which isn't what the proposal is but will be the net result of the idiotic Republicans' posturing and threats.

If that does happen, who do you think will be blamed for the "tax increase"? Surely won't be the Democrats.
 

cganesh75

Elite Member | For Sale/Trade
Super Moderator
Oct 8, 2005
9,536
31
101
i say let it expire.. Let the corporations pay it forward.. create jobs in USA.. you will get your tax credit at the end of the year.. you show your headcount grew.. and all of them in the US.. you get the full 3% back. deal?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Letting people keep more of their own money, no matter how jealous you are, is never a bad thing. Period, exclaimation point, full stop.

Yes, because perpetuating society through taxes, allowing you to earn those wages, is a bad thing. The classification that tax increases are preventing people from "keeping" their money is ridiculous and without basis in economic theory or fact. At what tax rates was the infrastructure built that currently allows these people to make money? 70-90% from 1950s through 1980s. That's why people can make money now. To not perpetuate that is plain stupid.

For somebody making 30,000/mo, these tax increases would result in ~200/mo in more taxes. Now you're going to tell me that this is "theft"? Bull. Fucking. Shit.

Not a single blowhard on here can provide a single shred of evidence that this will hurt the economy. But then there's Spidey, he's proud his wife has a bloated government salary and will have a pension that will bankrupt some government because he won't raise taxes, instead forcing bankruptcy or worse. Fucking hypocrite.

I also laugh at anybody who is pissing and moaning about this on here as I doubt a single one is effected by the increases. I can, and have, provided plenty of information that tax cuts do not do anything for this country.

I, for one, will be affected by the tax increases, marginally.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,412
10,302
136
Yes, because perpetuating society through taxes, allowing you to earn those wages, is a bad thing. The classification that tax increases are preventing people from "keeping" their money is ridiculous and without basis in economic theory or fact. At what tax rates was the infrastructure built that currently allows these people to make money? 70-90% from 1950s through 1980s. That's why people can make money now. To not perpetuate that is plain stupid.

For somebody making 30,000/mo, these tax increases would result in ~200/mo in more taxes. Now you're going to tell me that this is "theft"? Bull. Fucking. Shit.

Not a single blowhard on here can provide a single shred of evidence that this will hurt the economy. But then there's Spidey, he's proud his wife has a bloated government salary and will have a pension that will bankrupt some government because he won't raise taxes, instead forcing bankruptcy or worse. Fucking hypocrite.

I also laugh at anybody who is pissing and moaning about this on here as I doubt a single one is effected by the increases. I can, and have, provided plenty of information that tax cuts do not do anything for this country.

I, for one, will be affected by the tax increases, marginally.

Your wasting your time arguing with facts. The propaganda for the last 30 years has been that letting the wealthy keep more of their money is better for the country as a whole. It's obvious that we are in the delema we are in now that no amount of facts will change the minds of the low information and laisse faire capitalists that their economic philosophy does not work for our nation as a whole i.e. maintaining a strong middle class. The wealthy are eating our lunch and the media that they own have convinced the low information independents and pathetic republicans that keeping taxes low for the wealthy is the answer to all our problems. Facts don't matter anymore.
 
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ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,133
219
106
You do know Obama is just going to let them expire while the repubs play with themselves... Right?
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Probably the biggest effect will be when the capital gains tax rates go back up - people will be looking at doubling taxes on gains and the resultant sell-off will probably drop the market 5 or 10%, short term.

Dividends is why the rich is moving hell and high-water to save these since that where almost all their income is from.

Instead of paying 15% they jump up to ordinary income rates. (course still no SS/Medi/UE like working people are taxed in addition to ordinary income rates)

Beautiful scam rich people pulled off. Over tax workers so they fight for rich peoples tax cuts. Hats off!

I am one who can appreciate skill no matter how deleterious.
 
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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,098
5,639
126
Everyone hates Taxes. Cutting Taxes gets Votes. Do the Math.

That said, it's a sure way to destroy the Economy. So, Votes or the Economy, which is more important?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Dividends is why the rich is moving hell and high-water to save these since that where almost all their income is from.

Instead of paying 15% they jump up to ordinary income rates. (course still no SS/Medi/UE like working people are taxed in addition to ordinary income rates)

Beautiful scam rich people pulled off. Over tax workers so they fight for rich peoples tax cuts. Hats off!

I am one who can appreciate skill no matter how deleterious.

This is what is sad. The rich have gone around the country for the last 30 years telling people that Trickle Down Economics is the shit and all of the poor people bought it. As they have accumulated wealth they run around and buy lobbyists to convince the politicians, who are rich also, to keep lowering taxes. Then they go onto talk shows with their think tanks (Koch Brothers) and faux political parties screeching about how raising taxes on the rich will destroy the economy. The lobbyists do the same. The politicians, who get free trips and donations from the rich, don't want their meal ticket to end. Thus, they vote for tax cuts.

All because poor people are dumb and buy into the screed of the rich, falling into the Biggest Lie of propaganda. Goebbels would be proud.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
348
126
This is what is sad. The rich have gone around the country for the last 30 years telling people that Trickle Down Economics is the shit and all of the poor people bought it. As they have accumulated wealth they run around and buy lobbyists to convince the politicians, who are rich also, to keep lowering taxes. Then they go onto talk shows with their think tanks (Koch Brothers) and faux political parties screeching about how raising taxes on the rich will destroy the economy. The lobbyists do the same. The politicians, who get free trips and donations from the rich, don't want their meal ticket to end. Thus, they vote for tax cuts.

All because poor people are dumb and buy into the screed of the rich, falling into the Biggest Lie of propaganda. Goebbels would be proud.

It's really a lot more sophisticated and powerful than that as for how the propaganda works.

The politicians aren't really 'rich', but many are agents of the rich, effectively hired by them, who know where their bread is buttered.

And the more unequal things get, the more imbalanced it is for anyone who is not an agent of the rich to gain power.

There's a reason why the 'revolution' of the people against 30 years of abuse was to elect a guy whose biggest private donor was Goldman-Sachs.

And why the real 'revolutionary' candidates, by which I mean 'ones who more support the public interest than the rich', which is radical today, were not at all viable.

I've laid out a lot of the information previously, and think I won't make the long summary here again, but it's a movement that started in the 1970's largely as far as the propaganda side of things, where a massive infrastructure was created for manipulating democracy, the seeds planted by some well planted billionare funding, that has been ridiculously successful, altering America's citizens to a misguided state on issues of wealth not seen since the gilded age, if ever.

Much the way any organized ideology has taken over nations in the past, whether pro-empire or pro-Nazi or pro-hibition or many others, except greatly magnified by a culture with more sophisticated marketing and media, a population who all listen to 'input' from the machine but who do not talk to their neighbors about issues, than has ever existed, so that the 'people's' representatives in the debate can barely be heard - hidden in plain sight as about 5% of the population who don't have much impact.

It's not a machine that needs to be 'run' as a conspiracy - once kick-started, it's self-sustaining and self-propagating. It's a created monster.

One of its effects is to cause a loss of support for long-time institutions like 'democracy' as people look desperately for 'something' to save them - which ends badly.

There are helping hands at the ready to pull them - but not up as they are expecting to be pulled. All roads in this situation lead to oligarchy, likely a form of fascism.

The western world evolved out of a few rich having all the power - and now the few rich are having their revenge, moving backwards, not finding it to their liking.

There is a system for the rich - made of things like 'sociopathic' corporate laws without the intended guiding hand of the people - forcing things on society without a captain at the wheel, only secondary officers feeding the machine that is always, always, aimed at 'more for those with more', always marketing to sell this to the people.

It doesn't matter when even some of the 'more' recognize the problems with this and say the emperor has no clothes, like Warren Buffet or George Soros; they're brushed aside. Systemic 'fixes' that might help, like limiting the fuel for the machine of corporate cash in elections, are being removed instead of strengthened.

The Soviets lived in a bubble with their misguided ideology nearly unquestioned among the people, even the leaders - when communism fail, leaders said they were like lost children looking for what else they could do. We have a different misguided ideology, but we are similarly in our own bubble of misguided ideology.

Save234
 
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IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,948
130
106
all taxes are income confiscation. Government can't create wealth. It can only destroy it. It's a liberal tradition to employ a class envy narrative to punish achievers.
 

Cynicist

Senior member
Nov 27, 2004
512
0
0
all taxes are income confiscation. Government can't create wealth. It can only destroy it. It's a liberal tradition to employ a class envy narrative to punish achievers.

Many of the wealthy inherit their money from their parents/family. That's not achieving anything. The situation we have right now feels like a modern form of divine mandate. IMO, those that benefit the most from our current system of government (wealthiest) should also contribute the most to its upkeep.


The politicians aren't really 'rich'

Depends on your definition of rich.
 
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Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
all taxes are income confiscation. Government can't create wealth. It can only destroy it. It's a liberal tradition to employ a class envy narrative to punish achievers.

Taxes are not an ideological debate, no matter how much you might wish it were so. They pay for things the government does, much of which people are in favor of. Tax distribution, tax rates, etc, are topics for reasonable debate. "TAXES ARE TEH EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!" is just stupid.