Bush tax cut extension fails in Senate -> Repubs hands Dems a gift on silver platter?

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Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
26% of Americans are in favor of the Republican position. Less than half of REPUBLICANS favor the Republican position.

Depends completely on the way the question is asked: "do you favor tax cuts for the rich?" vs "do you want current tax levels to remain in effect for everyone?". You're going to get very different answers.

The other thing is that regardless of how they answer the question, when their taxes get jacked up, they're going to be pissed and they're going to blame the president. He knows this, he'll cave.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Depends completely on the way the question is asked: "do you favor tax cuts for the rich?" vs "do you want current tax levels to remain in effect for everyone?". You're going to get very different answers.

The other thing is that regardless of how they answer the question, when their taxes get jacked up, they're going to be pissed and they're going to blame the president. He knows this, he'll cave.

And if he does, then Repubs will shed buckets of crocodile tears as they blame him for (sob!) enormous deficits.

Like I offered earlier, House Dems should just adjourn, stuff the whole deal right up senatorial repubs' collective bunghole. Take it or leave it, because there's no reconciliation if the House isn't in session...

There's no point in negotiating with repub hostage takers, because it's obvious that they'll kill the hostage, the middle class, anyway.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Depends completely on the way the question is asked: "do you favor tax cuts for the rich?" vs "do you want current tax levels to remain in effect for everyone?". You're going to get very different answers.

The other thing is that regardless of how they answer the question, when their taxes get jacked up, they're going to be pissed and they're going to blame the president. He knows this, he'll cave.

No, it wasn't asked in a vague manner like that.

Three options were offered: extend all the tax cuts; extend the tax cuts for up to $250K income; and extend none of the tax cuts.

It didn't have your type phrasing.

Given the 74% opposition to the Republican position, you are way too convinced how the blame will happen. Unfortunately, Obama so far is indicating he's not standing up for right.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Budget reconcilliation. You either already know it and are wasting everyone's time, or you are to stupid to understand it and also wasting everyone's time.

Congratulations, you knew one thing I didn't and you've been waiting years for that. :p

Of course you still aren't anywhere near close. :ninja:
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Have you partisan hacks not realized the elections are over?

I really don't see where this partisan bickering is going to make any difference to anyone other than the usual suspects.

You can go round and round and round and spin this however you think it best fits your preferred letter... but does it mean anything?
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
No, it wasn't asked in a vague manner like that.

Three options were offered: extend all the tax cuts; extend the tax cuts for up to $250K income; and extend none of the tax cuts.

It didn't have your type phrasing.

Given the 74% opposition to the Republican position, you are way too convinced how the blame will happen. Unfortunately, Obama so far is indicating he's not standing up for right.

You're just all full of propaganda at all times!

It's a wonder how you ever look yourself in the mirror in the mornings!

A vote for one option is not an indication of opposition to another option.

Not to mention if 51% of Americans voiced support of extending the Bush Tax Cuts, you would oppose "the will of the people" as brainwashed by evil entities or something. Your use of polling data is so hypocritical, it's amusing :D
 

manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
13,559
8
0
I vote we stop using polls all the way around....just another way to push Argumentum ad populum fallacies anyways...


So anyone advocating for extending all tax cuts gets to stop whining about deficits too then right?


Or is it another bailout?

I personally think all rates should go back to the old rates in 2-4 years when growth is above 6 percent for multiple quarters...
 

VinylxScratches

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2009
1,666
0
0
So what does that mean for us? Currently 23% of my check is stolen by various governments. What are they going to steal now?
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
In other news, the republicans at the lower income brackets will chant "WE ARE DOING OUR PART FOR THIS COUNTRY NOW".

the bipartizan system needs to end.
 

IBMer

Golden Member
Jul 7, 2000
1,137
0
76
So what does that mean for us? Currently 23% of my check is stolen by various governments. What are they going to steal now?

Stolen! I always love this mantra. Please do not use roads to work, and go ahead and pay for your public education and please start saving now because you'll have to pay for your kids education too. Also keep your money in a mattress because you can't trust to put it into a bank as they are no longer insured and could go bankrupt and all your money would be gone. Since your keeping it at home, please also hire private bodyguards because there will be people who are going to rob you for said money as there are no more police and keep it in a fire proof safe as well since there is no fire department.
 

VinylxScratches

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2009
1,666
0
0
Stolen! I always love this mantra. Please do not use roads to work, and go ahead and pay for your public education and please start saving now because you'll have to pay for your kids education too. Also keep your money in a mattress because you can't trust to put it into a bank as they are no longer insured and could go bankrupt and all your money would be gone. Since your keeping it at home, please also hire private bodyguards because there will be people who are going to rob you for said money as there are no more police and keep it in a fire proof safe as well since there is no fire department.

Thanks for answering the question!
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
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The Republicans voted AGAINST tax cuts for all Americans - for all the income of 98% of Americans.

The Democrats have exposed them as caring completely *for the richest* and not for the other 98%, for 'small government', for 'low taxes', for reducing the deficit.

The right will largely miss the point, blindly praising the Republicans 'sticking to their principles' or some other idiocy.

If reducing the deficit was truly the concern then not extending any of the tax cuts is indeed the prudent action. It just doesn't happen to be very popular.

From the top of my head, if the Bush tax cuts expire in their entirety that means an extra $380B a year in Federal revenue, if just the top 2% expires it will mean an extra $70B in Federal Revenue.

Current deficit is roughly $1.3T, $380B is getting close to cutting 1/3 of the deficit and combined with significant spending cuts we might actually be getting somewhere. $70B is around 5% which is something but doesn't really give us a shot in hell at significantly reducing the deficit.

Lets have an actual honest discussion about the implications instead of throwing around buzz words and talking points. Either "we" want to reduce the deficit or "we" don't, taxing just the rich won't cut it. Period.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
I vote we stop using polls all the way around....just another way to push Argumentum ad populum fallacies anyways...


So anyone advocating for extending all tax cuts gets to stop whining about deficits too then right?


Or is it another bailout?

I personally think all rates should go back to the old rates in 2-4 years when growth is above 6 percent for multiple quarters...

Righties are so deep in denial that they can't see the glaring inconsistencies in their positions.

Cutting taxes and going to war simultaneously makes perfect sense in their universe. F22's are more necessary than school lunches. Re-instating nuclear treaties isn't necessary- it's just a political football, a means to gaining domestic concessions.

Trickledown economics actually work in their heads, too, despite the evidence of failure in the world around them. Cutting the size of govt won't lead to even more unemployment, either, because private enterprise will magically start hiring americans instead of chinese. Low taxes at the top encourage investment rather than rank speculation. Don't tax and borrow from the Rich isn't a form of class warfare looting. Boom and bust doesn't concentrate wealth and spread misery, at all.

They worship at the altar of Greed, adore their abusers, and are absolutely certain that they'll be fabulously wealthy someday, themselves, if they just emulate those who are... They have a deep and abiding faith in emotional appeal and self serving lies, in those who tell them what they want to hear.

So there's little point in offering them the truth- it's one of those pearls before swine sort of things...
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Stolen! I always love this mantra. Please do not use roads to work, and go ahead and pay for your public education and please start saving now because you'll have to pay for your kids education too. Also keep your money in a mattress because you can't trust to put it into a bank as they are no longer insured and could go bankrupt and all your money would be gone. Since your keeping it at home, please also hire private bodyguards because there will be people who are going to rob you for said money as there are no more police and keep it in a fire proof safe as well since there is no fire department.
1. Roads paid for with gas and local taxes.
2. Public education paid mostly with local property taxes
3. The FDIC is a self funding insurance company that receives no money from the Federal government.
4. Police and fire are both paid for with local taxes.

So in effect not one item in your list comes from federal taxes, please try again.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
PJ's post, above, typifies the dishonesty and blindness of the Right.

Federal grants play a huge part in maintaining the transportation system, particularly in poorer, redder, less populous states.

The same is true for education.

The FDIC would have been buried if not for the bank bailout, and anybody with a lick of sense knows it.

Police and fire receive federal monies, too, and then there's the FBI, TSA, and the rest of the federal law enforcement apparatus.

He lies- get used to it.
 

sMiLeYz

Platinum Member
Feb 3, 2003
2,696
0
76
red-state-socialism.jpg


People always want to pay less taxes, live with the benefits of a first world country AND want to reduce the deficits. ROFL, yeah and I want unicorns and rainbows too
 
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manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
13,559
8
0
red-state-socialism.jpg


People always want to pay less taxes, live with the benefits of a first world country AND want to reduce the deficits. ROFL, yeah and I want unicorns and rainbows too

very interesting info there. I knew some of these in isolated terms but seeing them in one place is very telling.


I am very interested in what the talking points will be on monday with this vote. Anyone think the Dem's are gonna cave on the top tier by monday to get unemployment and DADT?
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,040
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I am very interested in what the talking points will be on monday with this vote. Anyone think the Dem's are gonna cave on the top tier by monday to get unemployment and DADT?

Agree 100%. But as weak as the dems are right now, they'll probably settle for just enemployment.

I had high hopes for this administration & Congress, but they've allowed repubs to push them around from the start. I can't see them growing a pair now.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
1. Roads paid for with gas and local taxes.
2. Public education paid mostly with local property taxes
3. The FDIC is a self funding insurance company that receives no money from the Federal government.
4. Police and fire are both paid for with local taxes.

So in effect not one item in your list comes from federal taxes, please try again.

Neither of them mentioned just federal taxes...
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
If the Democrats were better at politics, the current tax standoff would be a HUGE boon for the Democrats. They could say with reasonable honesty that Republicans opposed tax cuts for the poor, the middle class and the upper middle class. The fact that Republicans only opposes those cuts because they wanted to hold them hostage to get tax cuts for millionaires is actually worse. Rather than opposing the proposed cuts as a matter of ideology, it's simply a political strategy to get tax cuts for the top percent or so of Americans. That doesn't make the Republicans look too in favor of the folks they claim to look out for.

However, this isn't a win for the Democrats because Democrats SUCK at this kind of thing, and Republicans are really good at it. And while I'd rather the debate be intelligent and fact-based, the fact is that the average voter is won over more by a good story than anything else. The Republicans tell a story that they support "small business" and "average Americans", and despite being handed a gift wrapped argument to the contrary, Democrats can't manage to make use of it.

Democrats should be on TV 24/7, demanding that Republicans explain why they're supporting a tax hike on the vast majority of Americans. Make Republicans say what they really care about is tax cuts for millionaires, and they're willing to jack up YOUR taxes if they don't get their way. Except Democrats have never been good at that argument, and it doesn't look like they are going to start now.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Agree 100%. But as weak as the dems are right now, they'll probably settle for just enemployment.

I had high hopes for this administration & Congress, but they've allowed repubs to push them around from the start. I can't see them growing a pair now.

The House didn't. They passed all kinds of good things. It was the White House and the filibuster abuse in the Senate.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
If reducing the deficit was truly the concern then not extending any of the tax cuts is indeed the prudent action. It just doesn't happen to be very popular.

From the top of my head, if the Bush tax cuts expire in their entirety that means an extra $380B a year in Federal revenue, if just the top 2% expires it will mean an extra $70B in Federal Revenue.

Current deficit is roughly $1.3T, $380B is getting close to cutting 1/3 of the deficit and combined with significant spending cuts we might actually be getting somewhere. $70B is around 5% which is something but doesn't really give us a shot in hell at significantly reducing the deficit.

Lets have an actual honest discussion about the implications instead of throwing around buzz words and talking points. Either "we" want to reduce the deficit or "we" don't, taxing just the rich won't cut it. Period.

I'll agree that tax increases are urgent and imperative, completely inevitable. In order to politically palatable, they *must* start at the top. In order to be practical and effective, they must start at the top, because that's where the money is.

I'd be entirely pleased if we returned to the tax rates of 1980, other than for the bottom 50%, whose losses in share of income are so huge as to make raising their taxes utterly unreasonable and unfair.

Unlike most of the posters here, I was a working adult in 1980, and I didn't notice richies having trouble making ends meet, at all. Hell, they didn't whine nearly as loud about their horribly repressive tax rate, either. The more they get, the more they want. And the more they have, the more they use it to poison the thinking of the whole country.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
FUCK. Mcconnell just said he was willing to extend unemployment benefits(or unemployment rape as I like to call it) in exchange for tax cuts. How about we stop these "benefits" AND extend the tax cuts? Mcconnell needs to go in 2014.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
FUCK. Mcconnell just said he was willing to extend unemployment benefits(or unemployment rape as I like to call it) in exchange for tax cuts. How about we stop these "benefits" AND extend the tax cuts? Mcconnell needs to go in 2014.

How about you stop stealing from your roommate before you whine about taxes and umemployment benefits?