Bush started Iraq war before authorized

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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Looks like Bush started the war before Congressional authorization. A bombing campain started Aug 02. Congress authorized the war Oct 02. The announced start of the war was Mar 03. They were dropping bombs on Iraq hoping they would retaliate, giving the US an excuse for war.

Link

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Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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give it 10 years, then we will look at this and say "what the hell were we thinking?"
 

2Xtreme21

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2004
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Originally posted by: Czar
give it 10 years, then we will look at this and say "what the hell were we thinking?"

Maybe you will. I had that opinion from the very get-go. :)
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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They were always retaliating for Iraq breaking the rules that they agreed to after GW-1. They light up our A/C, we attack the installations. The game was played that way for 10 years. They go where they promised not to, we spank them hard.

Some-one again is trying to reach for straws to get their 15 minutes of fame.
 

Scarpozzi

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
26,392
1,780
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Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: Czar
give it 10 years, then we will look at this and say "what the hell were we thinking?"
Maybe you will. I had that opinion from the very get-go. :)
I just hate that monkey-boy got us in this mess to begin with. He's the worst president EVAR!!!

 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
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Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
They were always retaliating for Iraq breaking the rules that they agreed to after GW-1. They light up our A/C, we attack the installations. The game was played that way for 10 years. They go where they promised not to, we spank them hard.

Some-one again is trying to reach for straws to get their 15 minutes of fame.

read the article please

and they did not agree to the no fly zones, the no fly zone was alone declared by the US, UK and France at the end of the war
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
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The no-fly zone was never recognized by the General Assembly of the UN.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
They were always retaliating for Iraq breaking the rules that they agreed to after GW-1. They light up our A/C, we attack the installations. The game was played that way for 10 years. They go where they promised not to, we spank them hard.

Some-one again is trying to reach for straws to get their 15 minutes of fame.

read the article please

and they did not agree to the no fly zones, the no fly zone was alone declared by the US, UK and France at the end of the war

The "victors" can dictate the conditions - that is why it is called unconditional surrender.
Iraq was told that as part of the conditions for ceasing the hostilities (ending GW-1) that certain areas of their country were to be considered off limits for Iraqi military activities in order to protect populations and/or prevent future threats.

What the UN authorized was political CYA.
What Iraq realized was that if they were not going to be destroyed completed as a military entity was to agree to conditions imposed by the allies.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
They were always retaliating for Iraq breaking the rules that they agreed to after GW-1. They light up our A/C, we attack the installations. The game was played that way for 10 years. They go where they promised not to, we spank them hard.

Some-one again is trying to reach for straws to get their 15 minutes of fame.

read the article please

and they did not agree to the no fly zones, the no fly zone was alone declared by the US, UK and France at the end of the war

The "victors" can dictate the conditions - that is why it is called unconditional surrender.
Iraq was told that as part of the conditions for ceasing the hostilities (ending GW-1) that certain areas of their country were to be considered off limits for Iraqi military activities in order to protect populations and/or prevent future threats.

What the UN authorized was political CYA.
What Iraq realized was that if they were not going to be destroyed completed as a military entity was to agree to conditions imposed by the allies.
the conditions were dictated here, it was not an unconditional surrender
http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0687.htm
only after that resolution and after the failed uprising the no fly zone was put up. The resolution used as a reason for the no fly zones was this one
http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0688.htm

Which does not say anything about no fly zones.
 
Jul 1, 2005
15
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0
Originally posted by: HomerJS
Looks like Bush started the war before Congressional authorization. A bombing campain started Aug 02. Congress authorized the war Oct 02. The announced start of the war was Mar 03. They were dropping bombs on Iraq hoping they would retaliate, giving the US an excuse for war.

Link

or hoping to take out the anti-aircraft setups that where firing at our patrols of the no-fly zone?

no one needs to agree to let America protect people from genocide.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
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0
Originally posted by: HomerJS
Looks like Bush started the war before Congressional authorization. A bombing campain started Aug 02. Congress authorized the war Oct 02. The announced start of the war was Mar 03. They were dropping bombs on Iraq hoping they would retaliate, giving the US an excuse for war.

Link

I hope you know Bush doesn't need approval to bomb countries. He can bomb them until they no longer exist, he only needs congressional approval to go to war, and war means have troops in the foreign country for over 60 or 90 days (I'm not sure which, I think it's 60).
 

irwincur

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2002
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Technically the first Gulf War never reached an end. Saddam did sign a cease fire, but never actually lived up to the agreement. Any way you can look at it, this basically means that the war was never over.

So, technically, Bush could have simply sent more troops without bothering to give warning or even talk to Congress - and it would have been legal. Before the first war, Congress and the UN gave their agreement, this agreement technically still exists to this day. A key reason why Bush never listened to the newer, better paid off UN - they had already given their approval a decade before.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: irwincur
Technically the first Gulf War never reached an end. Saddam did sign a cease fire, but never actually lived up to the agreement. Any way you can look at it, this basically means that the war was never over.

So, technically, Bush could have simply sent more troops without bothering to give warning or even talk to Congress - and it would have been legal. Before the first war, Congress and the UN gave their agreement, this agreement technically still exists to this day. A key reason why Bush never listened to the newer, better paid off UN - they had already given their approval a decade before.

In a way true but the UN as the one who made the contract would have to declare Saddam in breech before that could happen.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
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In the article in your link, the author refers to an article about "a separate briefing paper" by Michael Smith, the man who first published the Downing Street Memos. His original article is extremely interesting. Here are two links to his article (in case the L.A. Times link requires a subscription):

The L.A. Times

The Salt Lake Tribune

The Real News in the Downing Street Memos
By Michael Smith, Michael Smith writes on defense issues for the Sunday Times of London.

It is now nine months since I obtained the first of the "Downing Street memos," thrust into my hand by someone who asked me to meet him in a quiet watering hole in London for what I imagined would just be a friendly drink.

At the time, I was defense correspondent of the London Daily Telegraph, and a staunch supporter of the decision to oust Saddam Hussein. The source was a friend. He'd given me a few stories before but nothing nearly as interesting as this.

The six leaked documents I took away with me that night were to change completely my opinion of the decision to go to war and the honesty of Prime Minister Tony Blair and President Bush.

They focused on the period leading up to the Crawford, Texas, summit between Blair and Bush in early April 2002, and were most striking for the way in which British officials warned the prime minister, with remarkable prescience, what a mess post-war Iraq would become. Even by the cynical standards of realpolitik, the decision to overrule this expert advice seemed to be criminal.

The second batch of leaks arrived in the middle of this year's British general election, by which time I was writing for a different newspaper, the Sunday Times. These documents, which came from a different source, related to a crucial meeting of Blair's war Cabinet on July 23, 2002. The timing of the leak was significant, with Blair clearly in electoral difficulties because of an unpopular war.

I did not then regard the now-infamous memo - the one that includes the minutes of the July 23 meeting - as the most important. My main article focused on the separate briefing paper for those taking part, prepared beforehand by Cabinet Office experts.

It said that Blair agreed at Crawford that "the UK would support military action to bring about regime change." Because this was illegal, the officials noted, it was "necessary to create the conditions in which we could legally support military action."

But Downing Street had a "clever" plan that it hoped would trap Hussein into giving the allies the excuse they needed to go to war. It would persuade the U.N. Security Council to give the Iraqi leader an ultimatum to let in the weapons inspectors.

Although Blair and Bush still insist the decision to go to the U.N. was about averting war, one memo states that it was, in fact, about "wrong-footing" Hussein into giving them a legal justification for war.

British officials hoped the ultimatum could be framed in words that would be so unacceptable to Hussein that he would reject it outright. But they were far from certain this would work, so there was also a Plan B.

American media coverage of the Downing Street memo has largely focused on the assertion by Sir Richard Dearlove, head of British foreign intelligence, that war was seen as inevitable in Washington, where "the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy."

But another part of the memo is arguably more important. It quotes British Defense Secretary Geoff Hoon as saying that "the U.S. had already begun 'spikes of activity' to put pressure on the regime." This we now realize was Plan B.

Put simply, U.S. aircraft patrolling the southern no-fly zone were dropping a lot more bombs in the hope of provoking a reaction that would give the allies an excuse to carry out a full-scale bombing campaign, an air war, the first stage of the conflict.

British government figures for the number of bombs dropped on southern Iraq in 2002 show that although virtually none were used in March and April, an average of 10 tons a month were dropped between May and August.

But these initial "spikes of activity" didn't have the desired effect. The Iraqis didn't retaliate. They didn't provide the excuse Bush and Blair needed. So at the end of August, the allies dramatically intensified the bombing into what was effectively the initial air war.

The number of bombs dropped on southern Iraq by allied aircraft shot up to 54.6 tons in September alone, with the increased rates continuing into 2003.

In other words, Bush and Blair began their war not in March 2003, as everyone believed, but at the end of August 2002, six weeks before Congress approved military action against Iraq.


The way in which the intelligence was "fixed" to justify war is old news.

The real news is the shady April 2002 deal to go to war, the cynical use of the U.N. to provide an excuse, and the secret, illegal air war without the backing of Congress.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: Harvey
In the article in your link, the author refers to an article about "a separate briefing paper" by Michael Smith, the man who first published the Downing Street Memos. His original article is extremely interesting. Here are two links to his article (in case the L.A. Times link requires a subscription):

The L.A. Times

The Salt Lake Tribune

The Real News in the Downing Street Memos
By Michael Smith, Michael Smith writes on defense issues for the Sunday Times of London.

It is now nine months since I obtained the first of the "Downing Street memos," thrust into my hand by someone who asked me to meet him in a quiet watering hole in London for what I imagined would just be a friendly drink.

At the time, I was defense correspondent of the London Daily Telegraph, and a staunch supporter of the decision to oust Saddam Hussein. The source was a friend. He'd given me a few stories before but nothing nearly as interesting as this.

The six leaked documents I took away with me that night were to change completely my opinion of the decision to go to war and the honesty of Prime Minister Tony Blair and President Bush.

They focused on the period leading up to the Crawford, Texas, summit between Blair and Bush in early April 2002, and were most striking for the way in which British officials warned the prime minister, with remarkable prescience, what a mess post-war Iraq would become. Even by the cynical standards of realpolitik, the decision to overrule this expert advice seemed to be criminal.

The second batch of leaks arrived in the middle of this year's British general election, by which time I was writing for a different newspaper, the Sunday Times. These documents, which came from a different source, related to a crucial meeting of Blair's war Cabinet on July 23, 2002. The timing of the leak was significant, with Blair clearly in electoral difficulties because of an unpopular war.

I did not then regard the now-infamous memo - the one that includes the minutes of the July 23 meeting - as the most important. My main article focused on the separate briefing paper for those taking part, prepared beforehand by Cabinet Office experts.

It said that Blair agreed at Crawford that "the UK would support military action to bring about regime change." Because this was illegal, the officials noted, it was "necessary to create the conditions in which we could legally support military action."

But Downing Street had a "clever" plan that it hoped would trap Hussein into giving the allies the excuse they needed to go to war. It would persuade the U.N. Security Council to give the Iraqi leader an ultimatum to let in the weapons inspectors.

Although Blair and Bush still insist the decision to go to the U.N. was about averting war, one memo states that it was, in fact, about "wrong-footing" Hussein into giving them a legal justification for war.

British officials hoped the ultimatum could be framed in words that would be so unacceptable to Hussein that he would reject it outright. But they were far from certain this would work, so there was also a Plan B.

American media coverage of the Downing Street memo has largely focused on the assertion by Sir Richard Dearlove, head of British foreign intelligence, that war was seen as inevitable in Washington, where "the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy."

But another part of the memo is arguably more important. It quotes British Defense Secretary Geoff Hoon as saying that "the U.S. had already begun 'spikes of activity' to put pressure on the regime." This we now realize was Plan B.

Put simply, U.S. aircraft patrolling the southern no-fly zone were dropping a lot more bombs in the hope of provoking a reaction that would give the allies an excuse to carry out a full-scale bombing campaign, an air war, the first stage of the conflict.

British government figures for the number of bombs dropped on southern Iraq in 2002 show that although virtually none were used in March and April, an average of 10 tons a month were dropped between May and August.

But these initial "spikes of activity" didn't have the desired effect. The Iraqis didn't retaliate. They didn't provide the excuse Bush and Blair needed. So at the end of August, the allies dramatically intensified the bombing into what was effectively the initial air war.

The number of bombs dropped on southern Iraq by allied aircraft shot up to 54.6 tons in September alone, with the increased rates continuing into 2003.

In other words, Bush and Blair began their war not in March 2003, as everyone believed, but at the end of August 2002, six weeks before Congress approved military action against Iraq.


The way in which the intelligence was "fixed" to justify war is old news.

The real news is the shady April 2002 deal to go to war, the cynical use of the U.N. to provide an excuse, and the secret, illegal air war without the backing of Congress.

An air war IS NOT ILLEGAL. This author is an idiot, Bush needs no approval to bomb the hell out of another country.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
The "victors" can dictate the conditions - that is why it is called unconditional surrender.
Iraq was told that as part of the conditions for ceasing the hostilities (ending GW-1) that certain areas of their country were to be considered off limits for Iraqi military activities in order to protect populations and/or prevent future threats.

What the UN authorized was political CYA.
What Iraq realized was that if they were not going to be destroyed completed as a military entity was to agree to conditions imposed by the allies.
the conditions were dictated here, it was not an unconditional surrender
http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0687.htm
only after that resolution and after the failed uprising the no fly zone was put up. The resolution used as a reason for the no fly zones was this one
http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0688.htm

Which does not say anything about no fly zones.

You are correct in respect to there actually being no direct reference to no-fly zones within the actual resolutions by the UN.

However, my contention is that Iraq broke/ignored many of the items that are called out in both of your links, essentially voiding out any formal/informal agreements that ar referenced within the UN resolution.

Other "understandings" and/or terms that were dictated to IRaq as a result of those agreements becoming void are not logged in the offical records, but policies impliments by multiple coiuntries and administrations to attempt to ensure that Iraq did comply with what they agreed to. Which the past has shown that they did try to circumvent.

 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,999
308
126
The president still has to present a report to Congress every 90 days during wartime or technically the declaration of war ceases to exist if not renewed. Its all covered in the numerous US wartimes acts that have popped up over the centuries. Military action against Iraq was formally authorized on January 12, 1991 but IT WAS NOT A DECLARATION OF WAR. These are two entirely different authorizations. The 1991 authorization barely passed 52-47-1 and 250-183, in the Senate and House respectively. And that authorization ceased when the terms of surrender were formally signed by Iraq on April 3, 1991. So the idea that a continuous authorization of war existed is wrong. The fact is that the administration bombed four straight months in Iraq prior to the war and tried in vain to bypass a formal declaration or authorization.

Don't underestimate Saddam, he was a lawyer and believed in legalistic trivality. He squeaked through every loose end - rightfully so as despictable as it may sound - and never technically violated any of the terms of that April 1991 cease-fire terms. The extra range on the rockets was attributed to SUPRA-sea level test conditions and perfect flight characteristics without any weight of a warhead whatsoever. He never formally had any evidence of WMD exposed under the tightest scrutiny that any nation has been subjected. And he enforced counter-insurgency tactics against rebels, which every sovereign nation has a right to do. Nobody is going to apologize for the fact the US had no right to invade, but the truth is the truth is the truth.
 

irwincur

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2002
1,899
0
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He squeaked through every loose end - rightfully so as despictable as it may sound - and never technically violated any of the terms of that April 1991 cease-fire terms.

I have a hard time believing that initiating hostility by firing on UN jets was not out of order.
 

2Xtreme21

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2004
7,044
0
0
Originally posted by: irwincur
He squeaked through every loose end - rightfully so as despictable as it may sound - and never technically violated any of the terms of that April 1991 cease-fire terms.

I have a hard time believing that initiating hostility by firing on UN jets was not out of order.

And they was supposed to just sit there while the jets were bombing the living sh!t out of them?

It's called provocation. And that, my friends, is how he squeaked through.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: irwincur
Technically the first Gulf War never reached an end. Saddam did sign a cease fire, but never actually lived up to the agreement. Any way you can look at it, this basically means that the war was never over.

So, technically, Bush could have simply sent more troops without bothering to give warning or even talk to Congress - and it would have been legal. Before the first war, Congress and the UN gave their agreement, this agreement technically still exists to this day. A key reason why Bush never listened to the newer, better paid off UN - they had already given their approval a decade before.
In a way true but the UN as the one who made the contract would have to declare Saddam in breech before that could happen.
By invading before UN inspections were complete are in violation of UN 1441.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
An air war IS NOT ILLEGAL.
Then why do countries get all bent out of shape when someone flies into their airspace?
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: her209
Originally posted by: ntdz
An air war IS NOT ILLEGAL.
Then why do countries get all bent out of shape when someone flies into their airspace?

Obviously countries don't like being bombed. Doesn't make it illegal. Bush has the authority under the constitution to bomb a country for his entire term if he wishes without congressional approval.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: her209
Originally posted by: ntdz
An air war IS NOT ILLEGAL.
Then why do countries get all bent out of shape when someone flies into their airspace?

Obviously countries don't like being bombed. Doesn't make it illegal. Bush has the authority under the constitution to bomb a country for his entire term if he wishes without congressional approval.
international law is your hint