BUSH responsible for death of thousands

elzmaddy

Senior member
Oct 29, 2002
479
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Okay, my opinion here:

Bush is responsible for the death of thousands in Iraq. Why? Because the war was totally unnecessary. WMDs or no WMDs, you cannot attack a country that did not attack or even threaten to attack you. Attacking a country for not obeying resolutions is sort of like shooting your spouse for reading an adult magazine because you think she or he may cheat on you in the future. No pre-emptive attacks can be justified. Well... they can be, as long as you are searching deeply for the justification in your head. You will find it, no matter how ludicrous or far-fetched. I believe this is called paranoia. You've got to be kidding me if you think a country with the largest military and most sophisticated weaponry in the world is scared of a meager third-rate country's arsenal. Of course there is a possibility that terrorists could get a hold of them, but you just cannot start a war due to a possibilty of what may or may not happen in the future. You could argue that eliminating these weapons will add to our national security. But at the cost of stepping all over another country? No, that is unacceptable. We want our president to defend our country, but not at the cost of making the rest of the world more miserable. You may say I'm not looking at the bigger picture of making the world a safer place. Let's take a look at it. Is this war good for humanity? Is there any chance of it slowing down or stopping the cycle of violence that has plagued us throughout all of human existence? Highly unlikely. All this does is reinforce the idea that violence is an acceptable means of solving disputes. We should not wait for Saddam or other violent leaders to stop, but be the shining example of what the world could be like. That said, war is needed sometimes. But face it, if war were truly necessary there would be no need for debate -- it would be VERY CLEAR.

Furthermore, is this benifiting the Iraqis? Now that the "murderous regime" is nearly gone, is there something better? Apparently in addition to the many Iraqi lives lost, there is now an unstable, lawless nation with a major humanitarian crisis on its hands. This is directly as a result of the war. Bush made a bad situation worse. Iraqis are now cut off from the most basic necessities. Iraq is now an even more dangerous and miserable place to live. Will it stay that way? Maybe, maybe not. I will keep up with the news and would love to be PROVED WRONG about all of this. However, by that point we probably won't even care about Iraq anymore. It will go the way of Afghanistan -- the 'forgotten war.'

Bush is directly and indirectly responsible for the loss of life and decreased quality of life in Iraq. How infuriated am I? I think Bush should be forced to adopt the young boy whose arms were blasted off. Lastly, the assetts of Bush, Cheney and others should be seized and used for the rebuilding of Iraq. :|
 

NesuD

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,999
106
106
I'm sorry but i have to respectfully disagree on virtually every point in your post. You haven't been paying attention have you.
Decreased quality of life! you have to be joking you better check your facts.
facts: before US invasion hospitals lacking in virtually everything from medicines to bandages we are providing those things to them everywhere we have a presence. Cities like Basra, Um Qasr, Naseriyah have a serious water shortage that existed before the invasion. Mostly due to The regimes neglect or intentional sabotaging of water treatment facilities such as was done in Basra. The coalition has actually built a pipeline from kuwait city to deliver water to some of these places and British engineers have well over half of Basras water system back online. Coalition forces have been hauling water by tanker to wherever it is needed. Iraqs oil for food program with the UN provided a lot of food for the iraqi people unfortunately The military stole it all for themselves and hoarded it in their warehouses. We on the other hand are unloading humanitarien food aid as fast as can be and have opened many of the iraqi army warehouses to the iraqi people. Do not come in here and spout blatent lies about what we are doing to or for the iraqi people. Keep it up and you will probably get Morphed.

 

Dudd

Platinum Member
Aug 3, 2001
2,865
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I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but Jesus Christ, we moved into Baghdad within the week, and we still don't have total control. Take a look at Iraq in six months to a year, and then we can begin to have this discussion, but it shows just how out of touch with reality you are if you believe the US Army can transform Iraq in a matter of days.
 

spaceman

Lifer
Dec 4, 2000
17,616
183
106
Originally posted by: elzmaddy
Okay, my opinion here:

Bush is responsible for the death of thousands in Iraq. Why? Because the war was totally unnecessary. WMDs or no WMDs, you cannot attack a country that did not attack or even threaten to attack you. Attacking a country for not obeying resolutions is sort of like shooting your spouse for reading an adult magazine because you think she or he may cheat on you in the future. No pre-emptive attacks can be justified. Well... they can be, as long as you are searching deeply for the justification in your head. You will find it, no matter how ludicrous or far-fetched. I believe this is called paranoia. You've got to be kidding me if you think a country with the largest military and most sophisticated weaponry in the world is scared of a meager third-rate country's arsenal. Of course there is a possibility that terrorists could get a hold of them, but you just cannot start a war due to a possibilty of what may or may not happen in the future. You could argue that eliminating these weapons will add to our national security. But at the cost of stepping all over another country? No, that is unacceptable. We want our president to defend our country, but not at the cost of making the rest of the world more miserable. You may say I'm not looking at the bigger picture of making the world a safer place. Let's take a look at it. Is this war good for humanity? Is there any chance of it slowing down or stopping the cycle of violence that has plagued us throughout all of human existence? Highly unlikely. All this does is reinforce the idea that violence is an acceptable means of solving disputes. We should not wait for Saddam or other violent leaders to stop, but be the shining example of what the world could be like. That said, war is needed sometimes. But face it, if war were truly necessary there would be no need for debate -- it would be VERY CLEAR.

Furthermore, is this benifiting the Iraqis? Now that the "murderous regime" is nearly gone, is there something better? Apparently in addition to the many Iraqi lives lost, there is now an unstable, lawless nation with a major humanitarian crisis on its hands. This is directly as a result of the war. Bush made a bad situation worse. Iraqis are now cut off from the most basic necessities. Iraq is now an even more dangerous and miserable place to live. Will it stay that way? Maybe, maybe not. I will keep up with the news and would love to be PROVED WRONG about all of this. However, by that point we probably won't even care about Iraq anymore. It will go the way of Afghanistan -- the 'forgotten war.'

Bush is directly and indirectly responsible for the loss of life and decreased quality of life in Iraq. How infuriated am I? I think Bush should be forced to adopt the young boy whose arms were blasted off. Lastly, the assetts of Bush, Cheney and others should be seized and used for the rebuilding of Iraq. :|


damnit!
If only bush hadnt used all that magical nation building powder in Afghanistan, we would see an Instant Stable Iraq!

 

BaDaBooM

Golden Member
May 3, 2000
1,077
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So to you, it is better that Saddam remains in power killing MILLIONS of Iraqis than to oust him and in doing so killing thousands, (mostly combatants). You forget that most of the civilian deaths are caused by the cowardly fighting done by Saddam's minions.

The legal reasons for this war was the conditions on the cease-fire of the first Gulf War (not the possibility of terrorist attack), in which Saddam agreed to disarm any weapons that the UN deems they cannot have. Saddam fired missiles that were prohibited by the UN during the conflict proving he was in violation of the original cease-fire. I'm sure we will find even more dramatic violations in the coming months (some may have already been found). So technically this was not pre-emptive. It was a direct result of Saddam invading Kuwait and not disarming like he agreed to. The other reason you speak of are also given, but this is in addition to the primary reason.

I guess you missed all the Iraqis celebrating and thanking Bush. Reguardless, it has been a whole few days since the went into Bagdad. One can hardly expect that the country is already a thriving democracy. You can't expect it to be better overnight, but it WILL be better.

Violence is an acceptable means to resolve something at times. This is one of those times. Peace is impossible without peace-keepers.
 

bubbasmith99

Senior member
Mar 24, 2003
479
0
0
dude you are so clueless it's not even funny.

only a response as disrespectful and glib as the one i am giving you right now can clue you in to your cluelessness.

 

elzmaddy

Senior member
Oct 29, 2002
479
0
0
Well I feel since this whole thing was unnecesary, I have condemned the Bush administration actions since the first bombs fell on Baghdad. So I don't feel its wrong to keep this attitude until I see something good happen there. I think it also keeps us from thinking the best-case scenario will come true in Iraq, forgetting about the whole matter, and then becoming ignorant of the reality.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Just a reminder that Iraq did attempt to Asassinate former President Bush....
 

NesuD

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,999
106
106
Clue word "feel" you don't reach logical conclusions by feeling. You examine the facts without being influenced by your emotions such as the obvious hate you have For Bush. Just another member of the touchy feely crowd aren't you?
 

elzmaddy

Senior member
Oct 29, 2002
479
0
0
So to you, it is better that Saddam remains in power killing MILLIONS of Iraqis than to oust him and in doing so killing thousands, (mostly combatants). You forget that most of the civilian deaths are caused by the cowardly fighting done by Saddam's minions.
We'll see if it changes things. Like I said, I would love to be proved wrong and made to feel stupid about all of this.
 

datalink7

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
16,765
6
81
What you fail to understand with your simplistic nickelodian diplomacy is that if you leave Saddam in power, you guarentee death.

Answer this: how would leaving Saddam in power promote peace and justice in Iraq?

And don't play de ping pong!
 

paulj2

Member
May 31, 2001
26
0
0


Of course there is a possibility that terrorists could get a hold of them, but you just cannot start a war due to a possibilty of what may or may not happen in the future.
Saddam had an airfield where he was training terrorist how to hijack airplanes. He met with these terrorist and allowed them access to his country. He gives $25,000 to the families of terrorists who kill Israelis in Pizza restaurants. Another 9/11 can not be allowed.

But at the cost of stepping all over another country?
I see a liberated Iraq. I don't see anyone stepping on Iraq. We showed extreme concern for the welfare of the citizens, infrastructure, and oil fields of Iraq. I see pictures of Iraqis celebrating on the streets and defacing images of Saddam.

Bush is directly and indirectly responsible for the loss of life and decreased quality of life in Iraq. How infuriated am I? I think Bush should be forced to adopt the young boy whose arms were blasted off. Lastly, the assetts of Bush, Cheney and others should be seized and used for the rebuilding of Iraq
How I wish you had the same or greater disgust for the Saddam's intentional abuses:

*************************Don't read the following if you have a weak stomach.******************

Medical experimentation,

Beatings,

Crucifixion,

Hammering nails into the fingers and hands,

Amputating sex organs or breasts with an electric carving knife,

Spraying insecticides into a victim's eyes,

Branding with a hot iron,

Committing rape while the victim's spouse is forced to watch,

Pouring boiling water into the victim's rectum,

Nailing the tongue to a wooden board,

Extracting teeth with pliers,

Using bees and scorpions to sting naked children in front of their parents.

Saddam's Atrocities
 

BaDaBooM

Golden Member
May 3, 2000
1,077
1
0
Originally posted by: elzmaddy
So to you, it is better that Saddam remains in power killing MILLIONS of Iraqis than to oust him and in doing so killing thousands, (mostly combatants). You forget that most of the civilian deaths are caused by the cowardly fighting done by Saddam's minions.
We'll see if it changes things. Like I said, I would love to be proved wrong and made to feel stupid about all of this.

I think you will get the chance to feel stupid, just be patient. ;) Also paulj2 gives you even more. I can't believe how many people hate Bush so much and they never protest Saddam. Bush has never done any of those horrific things listed above, yet they hate Bush more than Saddam. :confused:
 

Loralon

Member
Oct 10, 1999
132
0
0
Originally posted by: BaDaBooM
Originally posted by: elzmaddy
So to you, it is better that Saddam remains in power killing MILLIONS of Iraqis than to oust him and in doing so killing thousands, (mostly combatants). You forget that most of the civilian deaths are caused by the cowardly fighting done by Saddam's minions.
We'll see if it changes things. Like I said, I would love to be proved wrong and made to feel stupid about all of this.

I think you will get the chance to fell stupid, just be patient. ;) Also paulj2 gives you even more. I can't believe how many people hate Bush so much and they never protest Saddam. Bush has never done any of those horrific things listed above, yet they hate Bush more than Saddam. :confused:

That's true. It's amazing how blinded some people are in their hate of President Bush. Where was all this anger when Saddam was murdering and torturing his own citizens? Oh that's right, that never happened and all the allegations are clearly a carefully disguised CIA plot and Saddam is just an agent of the CIA doing the bidding of the imperialist U.S. military industrial complex. :p
 

BamBam215

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2000
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aha. i read the first 2 sentence of his posts and stop because it's complete garbage. you sound like u've been living in a cave.
 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
7,218
1
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Originally posted by: elzmaddy
Well I feel since this whole thing was unnecesary, I have condemned the Bush administration actions since the first bombs fell on Baghdad. So I don't feel its wrong to keep this attitude until I see something good happen there. I think it also keeps us from thinking the best-case scenario will come true in Iraq, forgetting about the whole matter, and then becoming ignorant of the reality.


Have you watched any of the newscasts showing the inside od Saddams palaceswith rthe profound opulance he used at the expense of the Iraqi people? He has 55 palaces. He has squandered the wealth of Iraq on his own illegally obtained power as dictator of Iraq for 30 years. He has whantenly killed anyone and everyone who apposed him,including his own children. He used weapons of mass destruction against Iranians and Kurds in the last 15 years. He was actively setting up nuclear weapons construction for what---Looks? What do you think he would have done this week if he had the bomb to use? Do you think the world should have allowed him to possess this power with his past track record?

What would you have prefered?


I think you are so wrong about Bush as to be completely off the charts. You make liberals look good. Bush killed no one. He ordered troops to liberate Iraq from Saddam and his regime. It looks as that has been done in the best fashion I have ever seen for such a task in modern history-- At a minimum of casulities on both sides. You couldn't get better results unless Saddam had walked into the UN hands above his head in surrendor 6 months ago.

You have the right to your opinion though, even if it is wrong. You won't find much company here sharing your opinion. Please, just tell the people here you are a greeny tree hugger or something. We don't want you as a democrat, or a republican. Hell, I don't think any party shares your opinon.
rolleye.gif
 

Tates

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Jun 25, 2000
9,079
10
81
This type of inflammatory drivel should be locked.

elzmaddy.....sounds like the AT addy of Baghdad Bob :disgust:

Morph, is that you?
 

elzmaddy

Senior member
Oct 29, 2002
479
0
0
Isn't it true the US didn't mind so much at the time when Saddam gassed the Kurds, and we have been known to support fascist dictatorships with not a clean human rights record, correct? Also there has been such a lack of global support for the liberation. Could the coalition forces be able to stop a civil war in Iraq? Do you think the removal of Saddam guarantees a better life for Iraqis? Even not considering our governments intentions, I am still extremely skeptical about the so-called liberation.
 

freakflag

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2001
3,951
1
71
Originally posted by: elzmaddy
Isn't it true the US didn't mind so much at the time when Saddam gassed the Kurds, and we have been known to support fascist dictatorships with not a clean human rights record, correct? Also there has been such a lack of global support for the liberation.


Who says we didn't care? We have simply tried to allow the UN to act against Saddams regime. Once we have finally realized the utter lack of fortitude in the UN as a body, we acted. Problem solved. Dictator gone. Now the UN can pass out Granola to the Iraqis.

Let's hope they can handle the job.
 

KDOG

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,525
14
81
Ok I'll write a response to Moonies and elzmaddys ridiculous drug induced hallucination.... Awww, never mind. What am I thinking, it wont do any good.
 

Tiger

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,312
0
0
Have you watched any of the newscasts showing the inside od Saddams palaceswith rthe profound opulance he used at the expense of the Iraqi people? He has 55 palaces. He has squandered the wealth of Iraq on his own illegally obtained power as dictator of Iraq for 30 years. He has whantenly killed anyone and everyone who apposed him,including his own children. He used weapons of mass destruction against Iranians and Kurds in the last 15 years. He was actively setting up nuclear weapons construction for what---Looks? What do you think he would have done this week if he had the bomb to use? Do you think the world should have allowed him to possess this power with his past track record?

What would you have prefered?


I think you are so wrong about Bush as to be completely off the charts. You make liberals look good. Bush killed no one. He ordered troops to liberate Iraq from Saddam and his regime. It looks as that has been done in the best fashion I have ever seen for such a task in modern history-- At a minimum of casulities on both sides. You couldn't get better results unless Saddam had walked into the UN hands above his head in surrendor 6 months ago.

You have the right to your opinion though, even if it is wrong. You won't find much company here sharing your opinion. Please, just tell the people here you are a greeny tree hugger or something. We don't want you as a democrat, or a republican. Hell, I don't think any party shares your opinon.
Huh???
OK, what have you done to the real Tripleshot?:confused:
 

TheShiz

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: dahunan
Just a reminder that Iraq did attempt to Asassinate former President Bush....

the US attempted to assassinate castro what like 8 times and failed each time, that justifies castro dropping some bombs on D.C.?
 

Dudd

Platinum Member
Aug 3, 2001
2,865
0
0
Originally posted by: TheShiz
Originally posted by: dahunan
Just a reminder that Iraq did attempt to Asassinate former President Bush....

the US attempted to assassinate castro what like 8 times and failed each time, that justifies castro dropping some bombs on D.C.?

If the Cuban airforce wanted to come over to DC and bomb the hell out of it, then I don't see why it would be illegal. Not a good idea though, just in case Fidel reads this and is thinking about trying it.