Bush Proclaims Himself . . .

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
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Puppet Government Loves Me !

You know - I keep seeing Dubya on the bow of the Titanic (in the role of Leanardo DiCaprio) standing
there with his arms spread out like he's flying - saying, "Look at Me ! I'm the King of the World !" -
never knowing that there's an iceberg out there with his zip code on it, until it's too late.

New York Times
<CLIP>

President Bush said in an interview on Thursday that he would withdraw American forces from Iraq if the new government that is elected on Sunday asked him to do so, but that he expected Iraq's first democratically elected leaders would want the troops to remain as helpers, not as occupiers.

"I've, you know, heard the voices of the people that presumably will be in a position of responsibility after these elections, although you never know," Mr. Bush said. "But it seems like most of the leadership there understands that there will be a need for coalition troops at least until Iraqis are able to fight."

He did not say who he expected would emerge victorious. But asked if, as a matter of principle, the United States would pull out of Iraq at the request of a new government, he said: "Absolutely. This is a sovereign government. They're on their feet."

Some members of the administration had made similar pledges, but this was the first time Mr. Bush did so.

In a 40-minute conversation in the Oval Office with correspondents from The New York Times, Mr. Bush, seated in front of a crackling fire, ranged across a number of issues that he is expected to discuss in his State of the Union address next week.

Yet Iraq was clearly foremost in his mind, and he said that with the coming election, "We're watching history being made, history that will change the world." That has been Mr. Bush's message in a series of interviews he has given in the days before and since his Inaugural Address on Jan. 20.

He later drew Iraq into a broader plan for democracy in the Middle East.

"I think two of the great ironies of history will be that there will be a Palestinian state and a democratic Iraq showing the way forward for people who desperately want to be free," the president said. He particularly praised Mahmoud Abbas, the new Palestinian leader, as a man who has "the will of the people with him, and that inspires leaders."

On domestic policy, Mr. Bush sidestepped a question on whether he agreed with a Florida law barring gay men and women from adopting children, saying he was not aware of it. But he said that while "children can receive love from gay couples," he believed that "studies have shown that the ideal is where a child is raised in a married family with a man and a woman."

He said that his plan to overhaul Social Security would be a centerpiece of his State of the Union address and acknowledged that his approach would demand politically difficult decisions of Congress.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
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Bush Says Iraqi Leaders Will Want U.S. Forces to Stay to Help

What part that statement don't you understand ?

Now he's speaking for the 'Irai Leaders' - those that he put there.
The only ones that he & the Administration are allowing to be voted for.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me put it another way - the 'Iraqi Election' is a couple days away.
The 'Leaders' haven't been elected - yet, but he's telling us, and the world
that they want us to stay. Either he can predict the future like a sourcerer, or
he already has the election rigged so he knows now who's going to be allowed
to be the 'Leaders' of Iraq, as his administrastion is manipulating the outcome.

Get over it, Iraq voted, now lets go after Iran, and Syria, and North Korea, and
anyone else that gets in our way - you forgot about Poland.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
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I was also a little troubled by the President's presumptuousness in that statement when I read about it this morning. Is there some kind of subliminal threat in that statement?
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Where is the presumptuousness in this case? Bush says he's spoken with many of those who may become Iraqi leaders after the election and his impression is that they most likely will want the US forces to remain until Iraqis themselves are ready to take complete responsibility. Is that statement unclear? It actually seems pretty straightforward for something emmitted from Bush's mouth.

Truthfully, if anything is presumptuous here, it's the title of this thread.
 

ReiAyanami

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2002
4,466
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According to Cheney, the general Iraqi populace wants US help in extracting oil from it.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Where is the presumptuousness in this case? Bush says he's spoken with many of those who may become Iraqi leaders after the election and his impression is that they most likely will want the US forces to remain until Iraqis themselves are ready to take complete responsibility. Is that statement unclear? It actually seems pretty straightforward for something emmitted from Bush's mouth.

Truthfully, if anything is presumptuous here, it's the title of this thread.

You'd have a good point if that were the case, but as reported here:

THE Shi?ite Muslim cleric tipped to become prime minister after next Sunday?s election in Iraq has said it will be the duty of the new government to demand the withdrawal of American forces ?as soon as possible?.

?No people in the world accepts occupation and nor do we accept the continuation of American troops in Iraq,? said Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, leader of the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq.

?We regard these forces to have committed many mistakes in the handling of various issues, the first and foremost being that of security, which in turn has contributed to the massacres, crimes and calamities that have taken place in Iraq against the Iraqis.?

 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Where is the presumptuousness in this case? Bush says he's spoken with many of those who may become Iraqi leaders after the election and his impression is that they most likely will want the US forces to remain until Iraqis themselves are ready to take complete responsibility. Is that statement unclear? It actually seems pretty straightforward for something emmitted from Bush's mouth.

Truthfully, if anything is presumptuous here, it's the title of this thread.

You'd have a good point if that were the case, but as reported here:

THE Shi?ite Muslim cleric tipped to become prime minister after next Sunday?s election in Iraq has said it will be the duty of the new government to demand the withdrawal of American forces ?as soon as possible?.

?No people in the world accepts occupation and nor do we accept the continuation of American troops in Iraq,? said Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, leader of the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq.

?We regard these forces to have committed many mistakes in the handling of various issues, the first and foremost being that of security, which in turn has contributed to the massacres, crimes and calamities that have taken place in Iraq against the Iraqis.?
You are quoting one man who more than likely will not be selected as Prime Minister despite the suggestion in the article since the majority Shia Dawa party has issued a statement claiming that a cleric will not be selected for that position.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Oh, and btw. The statement by the cleric merely says "As soon as possible." He doesn't state "immediately" and surely even he realizes that any immediate wihdrawal of US forces from Iraq would result in a battle for power among the various factions in Iraq. As soon as possible could still mean a year or two. He's not specific in his statement though so it's hard to say.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Where is the presumptuousness in this case? Bush says he's spoken with many of those who may become Iraqi leaders after the election and his impression is that they most likely will want the US forces to remain until Iraqis themselves are ready to take complete responsibility. Is that statement unclear? It actually seems pretty straightforward for something emmitted from Bush's mouth.

Truthfully, if anything is presumptuous here, it's the title of this thread.

:thumbsup:

The title makes the thread look like it was written by dmcowen. You know, something like, "Pope helps Bush kill Homosexuals."
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,711
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Where is the presumptuousness in this case? Bush says he's spoken with many of those who may become Iraqi leaders after the election and his impression is that they most likely will want the US forces to remain until Iraqis themselves are ready to take complete responsibility. Is that statement unclear? It actually seems pretty straightforward for something emmitted from Bush's mouth.

Truthfully, if anything is presumptuous here, it's the title of this thread.

You'd have a good point if that were the case, but as reported here:

THE Shi?ite Muslim cleric tipped to become prime minister after next Sunday?s election in Iraq has said it will be the duty of the new government to demand the withdrawal of American forces ?as soon as possible?.

?No people in the world accepts occupation and nor do we accept the continuation of American troops in Iraq,? said Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, leader of the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq.

?We regard these forces to have committed many mistakes in the handling of various issues, the first and foremost being that of security, which in turn has contributed to the massacres, crimes and calamities that have taken place in Iraq against the Iraqis.?
You are quoting one man who more than likely will not be selected as Prime Minister despite the suggestion in the article since the majority Shia Dawa party has issued a statement claiming that a cleric will not be selected for that position.


Sparing an irrelevent argument, let's just say you're right and he would not become PM, he is still the leader of the SCIRI party and is one of Iraq's " best-known politicians". He is ocnsidered the "leader of [the] Iraqi Shia majority". He has tremendous influence on the United Iraqi alliance list, he also served as President under the American appointed interim government. So to totally ignore his statements is indeed presumptuous.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,711
8
81
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Oh, and btw. The statement by the cleric merely says "As soon as possible." He doesn't state "immediately" and surely even he realizes that any immediate wihdrawal of US forces from Iraq would result in a battle for power among the various factions in Iraq. As soon as possible could still mean a year or two. He's not specific in his statement though so it's hard to say.



:roll:

I'll just ignore this strawman argument
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Where is the presumptuousness in this case? Bush says he's spoken with many of those who may become Iraqi leaders after the election and his impression is that they most likely will want the US forces to remain until Iraqis themselves are ready to take complete responsibility. Is that statement unclear? It actually seems pretty straightforward for something emmitted from Bush's mouth.

Truthfully, if anything is presumptuous here, it's the title of this thread.

You'd have a good point if that were the case, but as reported here:

THE Shi?ite Muslim cleric tipped to become prime minister after next Sunday?s election in Iraq has said it will be the duty of the new government to demand the withdrawal of American forces ?as soon as possible?.

?No people in the world accepts occupation and nor do we accept the continuation of American troops in Iraq,? said Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, leader of the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq.

?We regard these forces to have committed many mistakes in the handling of various issues, the first and foremost being that of security, which in turn has contributed to the massacres, crimes and calamities that have taken place in Iraq against the Iraqis.?
You are quoting one man who more than likely will not be selected as Prime Minister despite the suggestion in the article since the majority Shia Dawa party has issued a statement claiming that a cleric will not be selected for that position.


Sparing an irrelevent argument, let's just say you're right and he would not become PM, he is still the leader of the SCIRI party and is one of Iraq's " best-known politicians". He is ocnsidered the "leader of [the] Iraqi Shia majority". He has tremendous influence on the United Iraqi alliance list, he also served as President under the American appointed interim government. So to totally ignore his statements is indeed presumptuous.
If you'll kindly check my follow-up post, you'll find I did not totally ignore his statement?

What does "as soon as possible" mean? Hard to say.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Oh, and btw. The statement by the cleric merely says "As soon as possible." He doesn't state "immediately" and surely even he realizes that any immediate wihdrawal of US forces from Iraq would result in a battle for power among the various factions in Iraq. As soon as possible could still mean a year or two. He's not specific in his statement though so it's hard to say.



:roll:

I'll just ignore this strawman argument
How is this any sort of strawman? Do you know what he meant by "as soon as possible?"

Do you have some inside information that you'd like to share with the rest of us?

 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
"I think two of the great ironies of history will be that there will be a Palestinian state and a democratic Iraq showing the way forward for people who desperately want to be free," the president said. He particularly praised Mahmoud Abbas, the new Palestinian leader, as a man who has "the will of the people with him, and that inspires leaders."
This is the reason I'm getting closer to disliking Bush . . . the man shifts positions as much as Clinton. Bush and Sharon hung Abbas out to dry the first go round.

But what's more troubling is the notion that Bush thinks the Palestinian state and a democratic Iraq are history. They are fiction. You cannot predict history you frickin' moron. It certainly would be ironic if a Palestinian state arises despite the duplicitous behavior of Bush and Sharon. It certainly would be ironic if the cluster duck in Iraq somehow makes it to democracy.

What I think is ironic is that it's essentially nothing that Bush has done that has advanced the prospects for peace in the Middle East. Arafat kicked the bucket . . . that's Bush's crowning achievement. Not to mention the invasion of Iraq which is overwelmingly unpopular worldwide.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
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But asked if, as a matter of principle, the United States would pull out of Iraq at the request of a new government, he said: "Absolutely. This is a sovereign government. They're on their feet."

Here's the problem, remember how much trouble Bush has with that word :p
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
But asked if, as a matter of principle, the United States would pull out of Iraq at the request of a new government, he said: "Absolutely. This is a sovereign government. They're on their feet."

Here's the problem, remember how much trouble Bush has with that word :p

I LOVED Jesse Jackson's joke about that.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
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I cant imagine any government in Iraq would want to create a power vacum overnight by asking us to leave immediately. It would be inviting civil war.

I doubt any Sadam supporter would run for office, because he would just be arrested for supporting Sadam.
 

phillyTIM

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2001
1,942
10
81
Bush can proclaim himself anything he wants, but he looks like s##t with all that Iraqi (and US military) blood all over him, that his little adventure has reaped.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Where is the presumptuousness in this case? Bush says he's spoken with many of those who may become Iraqi leaders after the election and his impression is that they most likely will want the US forces to remain until Iraqis themselves are ready to take complete responsibility. Is that statement unclear? It actually seems pretty straightforward for something emmitted from Bush's mouth.

Truthfully, if anything is presumptuous here, it's the title of this thread.

Do you honestly think Bush has personally spoken to many of these would be leaders at length?
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Where is the presumptuousness in this case? Bush says he's spoken with many of those who may become Iraqi leaders after the election and his impression is that they most likely will want the US forces to remain until Iraqis themselves are ready to take complete responsibility. Is that statement unclear? It actually seems pretty straightforward for something emmitted from Bush's mouth.

Truthfully, if anything is presumptuous here, it's the title of this thread.

Do you honestly think Bush has personally spoken to many of these would be leaders at length?
Hard to say.

I would bet good money that Bush has spoken to more of them than any member of ATP&N though.

 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Where is the presumptuousness in this case? Bush says he's spoken with many of those who may become Iraqi leaders after the election and his impression is that they most likely will want the US forces to remain until Iraqis themselves are ready to take complete responsibility. Is that statement unclear? It actually seems pretty straightforward for something emmitted from Bush's mouth.

Truthfully, if anything is presumptuous here, it's the title of this thread.

Do you honestly think Bush has personally spoken to many of these would be leaders at length?
Hard to say.

I would bet good money that Bush has spoken to more of them than any member of ATP&N though.

Hard to say there as well. There are a few people on these boards from the middle east who I am sure at one point in their lives talked to some of these candidates. It would be a close race with Bush perhaps winning by a candidate or two ;)