Bush plans to end corporate health insurance on Tuesday?

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
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In his State of the Union on Tuesday the Bushies have already informed the media he will propose changing the tax law on health insurance.
Currently a business can purchase health insurance for its workers using pre-tax dollars.
However, individuals who purchase health insurance must do so using after-tax dollars (e.g. your net take home pay)
Bush wants to make money spent by individuals for health insurance premiums pre-tax money. In other words you take it off the top of your income tax and you don't pay any tax on this money.
A very fair idea. I support it.
However, if corporations can now just give you the money it used to pay into your health care as income you won't be taxed on, then corporations will have an incentive to just give you the money and get out of the business of purchasing health insurance for you.
While some really stupid right wing pro-consumer choice people will undoubtedly say:
"Whats wrong with that? Shouldn't I be able to spend the money on the health plan I choose"
The reality is three fold. First off instead of actually paying enough for a medical plan that is decent corporations will undoubtedly be able to just increase the health payment to you equal to inflation. Which means that health insurance which is rising at double the rate of inflation will either cost you more money for the same coverage or the same money for less coverage. In a few short years the payment will pay just a small fraction of the health insurance premium.
The second problem is that corporations have educated professionals evaluating and purchasing health insurance. They are experts. Most people don't have a clue. The result will be inadequate or ill concieved coverage.
Thirdly this plan ends the equality of health coverage at corporations. Currently the law states that the corporation can only write off (pre-tax dollars) an amount that provides the same amount of money and coverage to everyone of the corporations employees. If a company wants to purchase better insurance for executives it needs to do that with after tax money. But under the Bushies plan the employee can write off their health insurance premiums regardless of what other people pay. In other words an executive can purchase a health insurance plan that covers massages and stress reduction treatment(paid vacations) in the Bahamas. Don't laugh. Its legal and is being done.
All in all this little change in the tax law will end the social compact between worker and employer.
How long til we all have Wal-mart health care? Not long.
And the reason for doing this is so individuals that don't have health care at work or are self employed can now get health care?
Only those who have a high enough tax bill to save real money by buying health care.
And those people already have it.
So it will add virtually no one to the ranks of the insured but give businesses a way to stop providing health care.
And the new class of barely insured will have to turn to medicaid when they can't afford treatment.
Shifting health care costs fromt he corporations to the government (ie you and me)
Just what Wal-Mart is doing now.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
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I don't know what Bush is going to propose, but it's going that way anyway. With Health Savings accounts and the likes, it's going to be each man/woman for him/herself at some point. My company, and many others like it, are offering the health savings accounts in lieu of regular insurance (they offer catastrophic insurance, but you get the first $5,000 per person in medical care). It will be standard practice, IMO, in the next 10 years for many/most companies.
 

jrenz

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
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Maybe if people would stop complaining about high health care costs and actually attempt to improve their own health, we wouldn't be in this situation.
 

Legend

Platinum Member
Apr 21, 2005
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Originally posted by: jrenz
Maybe if people would stop complaining about high health care costs and actually attempt to improve their own health, we wouldn't be in this situation.

You greedy, immoral person! People have a RIGHT to stuff their faces with crap, not exercise, and leech off of society. Why won't you just let us take your money? The poor people cannot afford to go jogging, or to buy fruits and vegetables. Fast food/eating out, beer and cigarettes are much more affordable than fruits, vegetables, nuts, meat, and grains.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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The only parts you forgot to mention, techs, are the discount rates available to large employers, and the simple fact that anybody with a pre-existing condition will be squeezed out of healthcare insurance entirely.

It's just the usual misrepresentations from the Bush Admin and the Rightwing in general... Their prescriptions for healthcare are pretty much like putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound, anyway...
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
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Originally posted by: Jhhnn
The only parts you forgot to mention, techs, are the discount rates available to large employers, and the simple fact that anybody with a pre-existing condition will be squeezed out of healthcare insurance entirely.

It's just the usual misrepresentations from the Bush Admin and the Rightwing in general... Their prescriptions for healthcare are pretty much like putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound, anyway...
You're right I did forget to mention that.
thanks

 

bctbct

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2005
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Originally posted by: jrenz
Maybe if people would stop complaining about high health care costs and actually attempt to improve their own health, we wouldn't be in this situation.

Heck if your're healthy why do you even have insurance.
 

jrenz

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
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Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: jrenz
Maybe if people would stop complaining about high health care costs and actually attempt to improve their own health, we wouldn't be in this situation.

Heck if your're healthy why do you even have insurance.

For the very same reason you get insurance for anything else, to protect you in case of unforseen circumstances.
 

bctbct

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2005
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Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: jrenz
Maybe if people would stop complaining about high health care costs and actually attempt to improve their own health, we wouldn't be in this situation.

Heck if your're healthy why do you even have insurance.

For the very same reason you get insurance for anything else, to protect you in case of unforseen circumstances.

Sorry I thought you were infering that only unhealthy people required medical treatment.
 

jrenz

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Jan 11, 2006
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Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: jrenz
Maybe if people would stop complaining about high health care costs and actually attempt to improve their own health, we wouldn't be in this situation.

Heck if your're healthy why do you even have insurance.

For the very same reason you get insurance for anything else, to protect you in case of unforseen circumstances.

Sorry I thought you were infering that only unhealthy people required medical treatment.

I was inferring that if the average person would work more to improve their own health, then it would decrease healthcare costs for everybody.
 

bctbct

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2005
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Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: jrenz
Maybe if people would stop complaining about high health care costs and actually attempt to improve their own health, we wouldn't be in this situation.

Heck if your're healthy why do you even have insurance.

For the very same reason you get insurance for anything else, to protect you in case of unforseen circumstances.

Sorry I thought you were infering that only unhealthy people required medical treatment.

I was inferring that if the average person would work more to improve their own health, then it would decrease healthcare costs for everybody.


The problem creating high cost of insurance is higher medical bills. When an out-patient surgery requiring 20 min surgery, 1 hour recovery and then they send you a bill for 4K

Prescription costs have nearly doubled in the last 5 years...why?

Those at the top have decided to gouge us, why?

Because they are greedy and because they CAN.

I doubt increased medical visits have lead to insurance rate increases.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Originally posted by: Jhhnn
The only parts you forgot to mention, techs, are the discount rates available to large employers, and the simple fact that anybody with a pre-existing condition will be squeezed out of healthcare insurance entirely.

The law is pretty firm on pre-existing conditions, they can't apply a limitation if you have continuous coverage. And you can't afford NOT to have continuous coverage so not much of a problem on that end.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Originally posted by: bctbct
Prescription costs have nearly doubled in the last 5 years...why?

A LOT more people are taking them. The first reason is probably there is either a lot more awareness becaue of advertising or people are asking for drugs they don't need. The second reason is most of this country is obese and obesity causes a LOT of problems. Kidney disease, diabetes, cancer, etc.. can all be connected to obesity. The third reason is that the average population age in this country is steadily increasing. You have an ageing fat population, that leads to health problems and a lot more people taking drugs. On top of that there are hundereds of new drugs, entire new classes of drugs. Anti-depresents, Anti-cholesterol, Anti-inflamatories, Anti-Allergy, there are hundereds of new drugs in these classes, most of which are hundereds of times better than their predecessors and they are still under patent.

Add all that up and you have tremendous expenditures on drugs that cost more.

Originally posted by: bctbct
I doubt increased medical visits have lead to insurance rate increases.

Actually it has. The average age IIRC is approaching 50. Older people go to the doctor a lot more and there are more baby boomers than the rest of us put together and they are all going to be in retirement in the next 20 years. You think medical expenses are high now? It's going to be 50% of our GDP in 15 years or so.

 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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I said "squeezed out", rahvin- which is precisely the way it works. Sure, insurors have to offer you coverage, but that doesn't mean you can afford it. The law doesn't dictate price, only availability... The price is outrageous for anybody with serious pre-existing conditions...

It's a very common reason that people who could otherwise afford retirement have to wait until they turn 65, when medicare kicks in...
 

CSMR

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2004
1,376
2
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Originally posted by: techs
In his State of the Union on Tuesday the Bushies have already informed the media he will propose changing the tax law on health insurance.
Currently a business can purchase health insurance for its workers using pre-tax dollars.
However, individuals who purchase health insurance must do so using after-tax dollars (e.g. your net take home pay)
Bush wants to make money spent by individuals for health insurance premiums pre-tax money. In other words you take it off the top of your income tax and you don't pay any tax on this money.
A very fair idea. I support it.
However, if corporations can now just give you the money it used to pay into your health care as income you won't be taxed on, then corporations will have an incentive to just give you the money and get out of the business of purchasing health insurance for you.
While some really stupid right wing pro-consumer choice people will undoubtedly say:
"Whats wrong with that? Shouldn't I be able to spend the money on the health plan I choose"
I follow you
The reality is three fold. First off instead of actually paying enough for a medical plan that is decent corporations will undoubtedly be able to just increase the health payment to you equal to inflation. Which means that health insurance which is rising at double the rate of inflation will either cost you more money for the same coverage or the same money for less coverage. In a few short years the payment will pay just a small fraction of the health insurance premium.
No, you don't understand the economics of this. If individuals spend their own money the company does not need to given them any specially labelled money for health care. If the firm gives health care money and ordinary money, if the worker can spend it as he likes, all the worker cares about is the total, and all the firm cares about is the total, and so what the economic system determines is the total, and if one changes that has no effect. "Health care money" could be fixed, or go to zero, or whatever; it would not have any real effect.
The second problem is that corporations have educated professionals evaluating and purchasing health insurance. They are experts. Most people don't have a clue. The result will be inadequate or ill concieved coverage.
A potential problem, I agree.
Thirdly this plan ends the equality of health coverage at corporations. Currently the law states that the corporation can only write off (pre-tax dollars) an amount that provides the same amount of money and coverage to everyone of the corporations employees. If a company wants to purchase better insurance for executives it needs to do that with after tax money. But under the Bushies plan the employee can write off their health insurance premiums regardless of what other people pay. In other words an executive can purchase a health insurance plan that covers massages and stress reduction treatment(paid vacations) in the Bahamas. Don't laugh. Its legal and is being done.
I would think some cap of some sort on tax-deductability is in order. (The only reason I see for tax deductability is to encourage insurance so medicaid isn't involved at an expense to the government.)
How long til we all have Wal-mart health care? Not long.
I don't know what you mean, but if Wal-mart starts providing health care then the problems with medical costs in the US will be solved!
So it will add virtually no one to the ranks of the insured but give businesses a way to stop providing health care.
And the new class of barely insured will have to turn to medicaid when they can't afford treatment.
Shifting health care costs fromt he corporations to the government (ie you and me)
Just what Wal-Mart is doing now.
Oh I see. In that case there should be a requirement that insurance must be purchased by workers, perhaps depending on how much they earn.
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,263
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I predict that this will fail just like SS private accounts, and the medicaid D fiasco and will just remind all Americans that we need real fixes.
ie. a cpmplete new nationwide healthcare system from the gound up that all citizens can participate in.
 

CSMR

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2004
1,376
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Originally posted by: Ronstang
You are not educated are you? Paragraphs, heard of them?
The OP was one of the more reasoned posts here actually.
 

jrenz

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
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Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: jrenz
Maybe if people would stop complaining about high health care costs and actually attempt to improve their own health, we wouldn't be in this situation.

Heck if your're healthy why do you even have insurance.

For the very same reason you get insurance for anything else, to protect you in case of unforseen circumstances.

Sorry I thought you were infering that only unhealthy people required medical treatment.

I was inferring that if the average person would work more to improve their own health, then it would decrease healthcare costs for everybody.


The problem creating high cost of insurance is higher medical bills.

You don't think that if in general, people were less likely to need medical care, that insurance costs wouldn't go down?
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: jrenz
Maybe if people would stop complaining about high health care costs and actually attempt to improve their own health, we wouldn't be in this situation.
Nice of you to blame the individual and ignore other factors such as fraud and greed.

BTW, ever seen a hospital bill or have your parents always taken care of you?

You better hope you don't do something as simple as break a leg w/o insurance.
 

CSMR

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2004
1,376
2
81
Originally posted by: techsThe second problem is that corporations have educated professionals evaluating and purchasing health insurance. They are experts. Most people don't have a clue. The result will be inadequate or ill concieved coverage.
On second thoughts, won't companies give recommendations about this? In that case people will still get relatively trustworthy advice.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
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Originally posted by: Jhhnn
I said "squeezed out", rahvin- which is precisely the way it works. Sure, insurors have to offer you coverage, but that doesn't mean you can afford it. The law doesn't dictate price, only availability... The price is outrageous for anybody with serious pre-existing conditions...

It's a very common reason that people who could otherwise afford retirement have to wait until they turn 65, when medicare kicks in...

Then your STATE has issues, I do not believe my state allows pricing by medical conditions in fact IIRC the insurance companies can't even ask any of that, all they can ask for is proof of continous coverage. Pricing is based on age, and yea, it's expensive because medical care is expensive. If you are buying it for yourself you shouldn't be buying anything but a 5K deductible plan and using a medical savings account.

Originally posted by: conjur
Nice of you to blame the individual and ignore other factors such as fraud and greed.

BTW, ever seen a hospital bill or have your parents always taken care of you?

You better hope you don't do something as simple as break a leg w/o insurance.

The individual is the problem. Obesity is dramatically raising the medical costs in this country.

Hospitals rarely make money, the emergency room costs so much because if you don't have insurance they have to charge you that much to make up for all the people that don't pay their bills. Something like 75% of people who go to the emergency room without insurance don't ever pay their bill. It's so bad that most hospitals call no insurance no pay.
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,263
202
106
Originally posted by: jrenz

I was inferring that if the average person would work more to improve their own health, then it would decrease healthcare costs for everybody.

I am in good health, not overweight, I don't drink or smoke, and haven't had to see a doctor since 2000 (appendix) where is my affordable healthcare? Just because I am self employed (lack of a group plan) does that mean I get to be gouged. I did some shopping at the end of last year and for $250 / mo I can get a nice $3 - 4k deductable, and 75% co pay. Nothing at all like the company plan I had before at $120 / mo with a $250 deductable and 100% copay for everything else. Right now I am on a semi fixed income and have opted to bank that $250, and just hope that nothing catestrophic happens until I go back to work full time, assuming I can even find a job with insurance.
 

bctbct

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2005
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Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: jrenz
Maybe if people would stop complaining about high health care costs and actually attempt to improve their own health, we wouldn't be in this situation.

Heck if your're healthy why do you even have insurance.

For the very same reason you get insurance for anything else, to protect you in case of unforseen circumstances.

Sorry I thought you were infering that only unhealthy people required medical treatment.

I was inferring that if the average person would work more to improve their own health, then it would decrease healthcare costs for everybody.


The problem creating high cost of insurance is higher medical bills.

You don't think that if in general, people were less likely to need medical care, that insurance costs wouldn't go down?

No I think the reason that insurance costa are rising is two fold

Medical costs are rising/ the same treatment costs more today that 5 years ago

Prescription costs are rising/ the same medication costs as much as 50% more than 5 years ago

Maybe more procedures are being performed but I would say that is probably marginal, same with prescriptions.

My co-pays went from $5-7 to $15-25. And the rates have increased 30-40 % in the last 5 years. I dont see a spike in more treatment causing these high figures.