Bush picked a winner in Iraq

villager

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Oct 17, 2002
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http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/16/1089694568757.html
Story has been updated.

Iyad Allawi, the new Prime Minister of Iraq, pulled a pistol and executed as many as six suspected insurgents at a Baghdad police station, just days before Washington handed control of the country to his interim government, according to two people who allege they witnessed the killings.

They say the prisoners - handcuffed and blindfolded - were lined up against a wall in a courtyard adjacent to the maximum-security cell block in which they were held at the Al-Amariyah security centre, in the city's south-western suburbs.

They say Dr Allawi told onlookers the victims had each killed as many as 50 Iraqis and they "deserved worse than death".

The Prime Minister's office has denied the entirety of the witness accounts in a written statement to the Herald, saying Dr Allawi had never visited the centre and he did not carry a gun.
But the informants told the Herald that Dr Allawi shot each young man in the head as about a dozen Iraqi policemen and four Americans from the Prime Minister's personal security team watched in stunned silence.
...The names of three of the alleged victims have been obtained by the Herald.

One of the witnesses claimed that before killing the prisoners Dr Allawi had told those around him that he wanted to send a clear message to the police on how to deal with insurgents.

"The prisoners were against the wall and we were standing in the courtyard when the Interior Minister said that he would like to kill them all on the spot. Allawi said that they deserved worse than death - but then he pulled the pistol from his belt and started shooting them."
...
Given Dr Allawi's role as the leader of the US experiment in planting a model democracy in the Middle East, allegations of a return to the cold-blooded tactics of his predecessor are likely to stir a simmering debate on how well Washington knows its man in Baghdad, and precisely what he envisages for the new Iraq.

There is much debate and rumour in Baghdad about the Prime Minister's capacity for brutality, but this is the first time eyewitness accounts have been obtained.

A former CIA officer, Vincent Cannisatraro, recently told The New Yorker: "If you're asking me if Allawi has blood on his hands from his days in London, the answer is yes, he does. He was a paid Mukhabarat [intelligence] agent for the Iraqis, and he was involved in dirty stuff."

In Baghdad, varying accounts of the shootings are interpreted by observers as useful to a little-known politician who, after 33 years in exile, needs to prove his leadership credentials as a "strongman" in a war-ravaged country that has no experience of democracy
...
But in a sharp reminder of the Iraqi hunger for security above all else, the witnesses did not perceive themselves as whistle-blowers. In interviews with the Herald they were enthusiastic about such killings, with one of them arguing: "These criminals were terrorists. They are the ones who plant the bombs."

Before the shootings, the 58-year-old Prime Minister is said to have told the policemen they must have courage in their work and that he would shield them from any repercussions if they killed insurgents in the course of their duty.

The witnesses said the Iraqi police observers were "shocked and surprised". But asked what message they might take from such an act, one said: "Any terrorists in Iraq should have the same destiny. This is the new Iraq.

"Allawi wanted to send a message to his policemen and soldiers not to be scared if they kill anyone - especially, they are not to worry about tribal revenge. He said there would be an order from him and the Interior Ministry that all would be fully protected.

"He told them: 'We must destroy anyone who wants to destroy Iraq and kill our people.'

"At first they were surprised. I was scared - but now the police seem to be very happy about this. There was no anger at all, because so many policemen have been killed by these criminals."

Dr Allawi had made a surprise visit to the complex, they said.

Neither witness could give a specific date for the killings. But their accounts narrowed the time frame to on or around the third weekend in June - about a week before the rushed handover of power in Iraq and more than three weeks after Dr Allawi was named as the interim Prime Minister.

They said that as many as five of the dead prisoners were Iraqis, two of whom came from Samarra, a volatile town to the north of the capital, where an attack by insurgents on the home of Mr Al-Naqib killed four of the Interior Minister's bodyguards on June 19.

The Herald has established the names of three of the prisoners alleged to have been killed. Two names connote ties to Syrian-based Arab tribes, suggesting they were foreign fighters: Ahmed Abdulah Ahsamey and Amer Lutfi Mohammed Ahmed al-Kutsia.

The third was Walid Mehdi Ahmed al-Samarrai. The last word of his name indicates that he was one of the two said to come from Samarra, which is in the Sunni Triangle.

The three names were provided to the Interior Ministry, where senior adviser Sabah Khadum undertook to provide a status report on each. He was asked if they were prisoners, were they alive or had they died in custody.

But the next day he cut short an interview by hanging up the phone, saying only: "I have no information - I don't want to comment on that specific matter."

All seven were described as young men. One of the witnesses spoke of the distinctive appearance of four as "Wahabbi", the colloquial Iraqi term for the foreign fundamentalist insurgency fighters and their Iraqi followers.

He said: "The Wahabbis had long beards, very short hair and they were wearing dishdashas [the caftan-like garment worn by Iraqi men]."

Raising the hem of his own dishdasha to reveal the cotton pantaloons usually worn beneath, he said: "The other three were just wearing these - they looked normal."

One witness justified the shootings as an unintended act of mercy: "They were happy to die because they had already been beaten by the police for two to eight hours a day to make them talk."

...
One of the Al-Amariyah witnesses said he watched as Iraqis among the Prime Minister's bodyguards piled the prisoners' bodies into the back of a Nissan utility and drove off. He did not know what became of them. But the other witness said the bodies were buried west of Baghdad, in open desert country near Abu Ghraib.

That would place their burial near the notorious prison, which was used by Saddam Hussein's security forces to torture and kill thousands of Iraqis. Subsequently it was revealed as the setting for the still-unfolding prisoner abuse scandal involving US troops in the aftermath of the fall of Baghdad.

The Herald has established that as many as 30 people, including the victims, may have been in the courtyard. One of the witnesses said there were five or six civilian-clad American security men in a convoy of five or six late model four-wheel-drive vehicles that was shepherding Dr Allawi's entourage on the day. The US military and Dr Allawi's office refused to respond to questions about the composition of his security team. It is understood that the core of his protection unit is drawn from the US Special Forces units.

The security establishment where the killings are said to have happened is on open ground on the border of the Al-Amariyah and Al-Kudra neighbourhoods in Baghdad.

About 90 policemen are stationed at the complex, which processes insurgents and more hardened offenders among those captured in the struggle against a wave of murder, robbery and kidnapping in post-invasion Iraq.

The Interior Ministry denied permission for the Herald to enter the heavily fortified police complex.

The two witnesses were independently and separately found by the Herald. Neither approached the newspaper. They were interviewed on different days in a private home in Baghdad, without being told the other had spoken. A condition of the co-operation of each man was that no personal information would be published.

Both interviews lasted more than 90 minutes and were conducted through an interpreter, with another journalist present for one of the meetings. The witnesses were not paid for the interviews.

Dr Allawi's office has dismissed the allegations as rumours instigated by enemies of his interim government.

A statement in the name of spokesman Taha Hussein read: "We face these sorts of allegations on a regular basis. Numerous groups are attempting to hinder what the interim Iraqi government is on the verge of achieving, and occasionally they spread outrageous accusations hoping they will be believed and thus harm the honourable reputation of those who sacrifice so much to protect this glorious country and its now free and respectable people.

"Dr Allawi is turning this country into a free and democratic nation run by the rule of law; so if your sources are as credible as they say they are, then they are more than welcome to file a complaint in a court of law against the Prime Minister."

In response to a question asking if Dr Allawi carried a gun, the statement said: "[He] does not carry a pistol. He is the Prime Minister of Iraq, not a combatant in need of any weaponry."

Sabah Khadum, a senior adviser to Interior Minister Mr Naqib, whose portfolio covers police matters, also dismissed the accounts. Rejecting them as "ludicrous", Mr Khadum said of Dr Allawi: "He is a doctor and I know him. He was my neighbour in London. He just doesn't have it in him. Baghdad is a city of rumours. This is not worth discussing."

Mr Khadum added: "Do you think a man who is Prime Minister is going to disqualify himself for life like this? This is not a government of gangsters."

Asked if Dr Allawi had visited the Al-Amariyah complex - one of the most important counter-insurgency centres in Baghdad - Mr Khadum said he could not reveal the Prime Minister's movements. But he added: "Dr Allawi has made many visits to police stations ... he is heading the offensive."

US officials in Iraq have not made an outright denial of the allegations. An emailed response to questions from the Herald to the US ambassador, John Negroponte, said: "If we attempted to refute each [rumour], we would have no time for other business. As far as this embassy's press office is concerned, this case is closed."
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
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But this maybe-soon-to-be dictator will be more friendly to the U.S.

I mean, Bush will install some big military bases in Iraq to see to that.
 

smashp

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2003
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there is another story floating around baghdad about him cutting the hand off of a member of a group of lebanese fighters.


Baghdad reporters are reporting this, not US.

They could be true, they could just be made up stories to install Fear of the new leadership.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
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"Return of the Son of Hussein meets Godzilla"

Bring back the Government authoriy terrorism antics that kept the Iraqi population quiet before.

Like a 'Bad' B movie. (Not to be confused with a 'Good' B movie)
 
Dec 27, 2001
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Wow...you guys didn't believe the CIA intel was correct, but you believe "two people who allege they witnessed the killings" are?

Where's your healthy skepticism now?
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,587
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www.bing.com
if anyone thinks they have a better idea for bringing order back to Iraq, let me know. Crackin skulls is what they need to do to scare the insurgents back to wherever they came from. The US didnt scare anyone, hell our military is under a microscope all the time, and every action is somehow a violation of someones rights in the eyes of all the IO's, with the US in control, the insurgents just do whatever they want, and if they WERE caught, they got better treatment under US/Red Cross care than they had ever known under Saddam. Allawi will keep everyone in line until the elections, allowing the US to pull out of the cities and assume a backup role.
 

smashp

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2003
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Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Wow...you guys didn't believe the CIA intel was correct, but you believe "two people who allege they witnessed the killings" are?

Where's your healthy skepticism now?

as you saw in my post above, it contained much scepticism.


The fact remains, Iraqis are reading these stories in their newspapers. They are there to creat fear of the government in iraq it seams.

If they are true or not? who knows.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
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Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Wow...you guys didn't believe the CIA intel was correct, but you believe "two people who allege they witnessed the killings" are?

Where's your healthy skepticism now?

hey if you belived the CIA with one source then you surely must belive this, right?
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
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It is going to take something like a secret police organization to weed out some of these insurgents. It will take a togher meaner attitude toward law breakers to create stability in Iraq.

I was in South Korea and they use to have an organization that was basically a combat police force. They were so tough no one ever spoke any ill toward them. They were all blackbelt elites trained by the army and often could be seen with a loaded 45 in the trouser belt. Korea also had another great Idea. A Curfew! Anyone caught out after 12:00 midnight was shot or arrested.
 

MonstaThrilla

Golden Member
Sep 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: piasabird
It is going to take something like a secret police organization to weed out some of these insurgents. It will take a togher meaner attitude toward law breakers to create stability in Iraq.

I was in South Korea and they use to have an organization that was basically a combat police force. They were so tough no one ever spoke any ill toward them. They were all blackbelt elites trained by the army and often could be seen with a loaded 45 in the trouser belt. Korea also had another great Idea. A Curfew! Anyone caught out after 12:00 midnight was shot or arrested.

Yes, a Secret Police is ALWAYS the answer! Authoritarianism rocks too!
 

irwincur

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2002
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Why can't reporters (I mean political commentators) please report on what they know, not what they think they might know. Even worse, this is most likely one of those hotel only reporters - you know the big network/newspaper guys who are too scared to leave the hotel so they pay people to get 'information'. Pay anyone enough and they will get you information - the question is do you know the people and are they trustwothy? I wonder just who were these informants?
 

Hossenfeffer

Diamond Member
Jul 16, 2000
7,462
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Originally posted by: irwincur

Why can't reporters (I mean political commentators) please report on what they know, not what they think they might know. Even worse, this is most likely one of those hotel only reporters - you know the big network/newspaper guys who are too scared to leave the hotel so they pay people to get 'information'. Pay anyone enough and they will get you information - the question is do you know the people and are they trustwothy? I wonder just who were these informants?

Would be great, but reporting what might be true might give them the scoop before the next guy. :roll:
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
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Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Wow...you guys didn't believe the CIA intel was correct, but you believe "two people who allege they witnessed the killings" are?

Where's your healthy skepticism now?

hey if you belived the CIA with one source then you surely must belive this, right?

You think we're being thrown a "curveball"?

;)
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
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http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2004/s1155990.htm
MAXINE MCKEW: Let's go straight to the allegations that Iyad Allawi executed as many as six suspected insurgents at a Baghdad police station at the end of June.

The explosive claims in tomorrow's Sydney Morning Herald and Age newspapers allege that the prisoners were handcuffed and blindfolded, lined up against a courtyard wall and shot by the Iraqi Prime Minister.

Dr Allawi is alleged to have told those around him that he wanted to send a clear message to the police on how to deal with insurgents.

Two people allege they witnessed the killings and there are also claims the Iraqi Interior Minister was present as well as four American security men in civilian dress.

Well, the journalist reporting the story is Paul McGeough, awarded a Walkley Award for his coverage of the Iraq war last year.

He's also a former editor of the Herald and is now the paper's chief correspondent.

He's joined me on the line from a location in the Middle East.

MAXINE McKEW: Paul McGeough, thanks for joining us.

Paul, as you've also made clear in your article, Prime Minister Allawi has flatly denied this story.

Why then is the Herald so confident about publishing it?

PAUL McGEOUGH, 'SYDNEY MORNING HERALD' AND 'AGE' FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Well it's a very contentious issue.

What you have is two very solid eyewitness accounts of what happened at a police security complex in a south-west Baghdad suburb.

They are very detailed.

They were done separately.

Each witness is not aware that the other spoke.

They were contacted through personal channels rather than through the many political, religious or military organisations working in Baghdad that might be trying to spin a tale.

And they've laid it out very carefully and very clearly as to what they saw.

MAXINE McKEW: You haven't identified these witnesses but why have they felt free to talk about such an extraordinary story?

PAUL McGEOUGH: Well, they were approached through personal connections and as a result of that, they accepted assurances.

They were guaranteed anonymity, they were told that no identifying material would be published on them and they told what they saw.

MAXINE McKEW: And just take us through the events as they were accounted to you?

PAUL McGEOUGH: Well, I'll take you through what the two bits of pieces of what the two witnesses said to give you the full chronology as I understand it.

There was a surprise visit at about 10:30 in the morning to the police centre.

The PM is said to have talked to a large group of policemen, then to have toured the complex.

They came to a courtyard where six, sorry seven prisoners were lined up against a wall.

They were handcuffed, they were blindfolded, they were described to me as an Iraqi colloquialism for the fundamentalist foreign fighters who have come to Baghdad.

They have that classic look that you see with many of the Osama bin Laden associates of the scraggly beard and the very short hair and they were a sort of ... took place in front of them as they were up against this wall was an exchange between the Interior Minister and Dr Allawi, the Interior Minister saying that he felt like killing them on the spot.

It's worth noting at this point in the story that on June 19, there was an attack on the Interior Minister's home in the Sunni triangle in which four of his bodyguards (inaudible) --

Dr Allawi is alleged to have said (inaudible) -- .

MAXINE McKEW: Paul, you just dropped out there.

You were just beginning to describe in fact how this incident, this alleged incident, took place.

What was the action taken?

PAUL McGEOUGH: Um, after a tour of the complex, the sort of official party, if you like, arrived in a courtyard where the prisoners were lined up against a wall.

An exchange is said to have taken place between Dr Allawi and the Interior Minister.

The Interior Minister lives to the north of Baghdad, and on June 19, four of his bodyguards were killed in an attack on his home.

He expressed the wish that he would like to kill all these men on the spot.

The PM is said to have responded that they deserved worse than death, that each was responsible for killing more than 50 Iraqis each, and at that point, he is said to have pulled a gun and proceeded to aim at and shoot all seven.

Six of them died, the seventh, according to one witness, was wounded in the chest, according to the other witness, was wounded in the neck and presumed to be dead.

MAXINE McKEW: And the victims, they were, what, foreign or local insurgents?

PAUL McGEOUGH: They were - one of the witnesses described them as Wahabis, the Iraqi colloquialism for foreign fighters who have come into the country or local Iraqis who have taken on their Islamic jihad, if you like.

The reference is very much to their appearance - very short hair, very scraggly beard and four of them were described as Wahabis, the other three were described to me as normal Iraqis.

MAXINE McKEW: Now you're time line, Paul, on this is this happened just before the formal handover, is that right, to Dr Allawi's interim Government?

PAUL McGEOUGH: As explained by the witnesses, neither of them could put a precise date on the incident.

But they each gave me a description in terms of the days that had lapsed from it and by tracking back on the two different descriptions that they gave me from the date of the interview I had with them, which was some days apart, I was able to establish that it happened on or around the weekend of June 19/20.

That would make it three weeks after Dr Allawi had been named as Prime Minister - one week before the handover.

MAXINE MCKEW: And your informants, in what kind of tone did they recount this extraordinary tale?

PAUL McGEOUGH: Very matter-of-factly, which is often the way you get incredible or remarkable events explained to you in this part of the world.

There's been so much violence, so much pain and a particular attitude to death, if you like, that both of them recounted it quite matter-of-factly.

MAXINE McKEW: And of course, I have to ask you again - I'm sure that the Baghdad rumour mill would be thick with stories about Dr Allawi.

Why are you so confident that you can't put this story into that same category?

PAUL McGEOUGH: Because it came from two eye witnesses.

You're right about the Baghdad rumour mill, it's ferocious.

And versions of this story are on it and it was as a result of hearing this story as a rumour that I proceeded to check it to investigate it, to see if it had a factual base.

I used, as I said earlier, personal channels to make contact with the two witnesses to establish that they were in a position to know in terms of somebody trying to come at me with a story, that wasn't the case.

They did not come to me.

They weren't offered or volunteered to me.

There was an element of chance involved in meeting one of them, which would have made it impossible for him to have been a set-up for me, and listening to their stories, their stories sounded credible.

I had a colleague sitting in by accident on one of the interviews.

He was impressed by the credibility and something that's very important with a story like this in this part of the world, particularly where you're interviewing through interpreters I had a very sound, to me on the ground, a very valuable set of Iraqi eyes and ears listening and also believing the account.

MAXINE McKEW: Your sources of course will be sought out by other news agencies after tonight.

Will they stand up to scrutiny?

PAUL McGEOUGH: Well I don't know whether others will find them or not.

I won't be making them available to anyone.

I've given undertakes that I would protect their identities absolutely and I have to stand by that.

MAXINE McKEW: All right, for that.

Paul McGeough, thanks very much indeed, fascinating story.

PAUL McGEOUGH: OK.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,783
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Originally posted by: Train
if anyone thinks they have a better idea for bringing order back to Iraq, let me know. Crackin skulls is what they need to do to scare the insurgents back to wherever they came from. The US didnt scare anyone, hell our military is under a microscope all the time, and every action is somehow a violation of someones rights in the eyes of all the IO's, with the US in control, the insurgents just do whatever they want, and if they WERE caught, they got better treatment under US/Red Cross care than they had ever known under Saddam. Allawi will keep everyone in line until the elections, allowing the US to pull out of the cities and assume a backup role.

Well, it worked very well for Saddam, but if it's to be allowed the final Justification for the Iraq War has just gone out the window.

I don't know if there is any Truth to this story, but if there is no matter how anyone slices it this whole travesty has been a waste of everyones' Time, Money, and Lives. The end result would effectively be the loss of the WoT before it had barely began.

Face it, the Bush Admins only Hope of Redemption now is that Iraq turns into a Democratic Paradise. A new Brutal Dictatorship will set the US and the World back Decades.

edit:spelling
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Originally posted by: Train
Being tough on crime != brutal dictatorship

Pinochet brought an order we liked to his country. He was tough on crime too.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,740
6,760
126
Originally posted by: Train
if anyone thinks they have a better idea for bringing order back to Iraq, let me know. Crackin skulls is what they need to do to scare the insurgents back to wherever they came from. The US didnt scare anyone, hell our military is under a microscope all the time, and every action is somehow a violation of someones rights in the eyes of all the IO's, with the US in control, the insurgents just do whatever they want, and if they WERE caught, they got better treatment under US/Red Cross care than they had ever known under Saddam. Allawi will keep everyone in line until the elections, allowing the US to pull out of the cities and assume a backup role.

I guess it worked for you. You are a true believer now.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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Originally posted by: Train
Like i said, anyone got a better idea?

this forum just pisses on everything.


Well we HAD better ideas, but Bush screwed the pooch. Now we are left with this.

So, what needs to be done is to prosecute people in open court, otherwise it's largely "meet the new boss, same as the old boss". The punishment can fit the crime, however Saddam killed people just as sweetly as this is alleged to have happened. That isn't going to help things. The insurgents are pleased to die if needed. There seem to be sufficient replacements not to make this behavior a deterrent.

WHY this is important is because this is the time in Iraqi history where precedent is being set. Just like the infant USA, what happens early on may be carried on from here. If summary execution of the opposition, regardless of the provocation becomes the norm, then we truly have fscked things up beyond all reason.

Frankly though I want to know more before making too much of this. If it's bogus, then all of this is moot.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,740
6,760
126
Originally posted by: Train
Like i said, anyone got a better idea?

this forum just pisses on everything.
Of course, do everything according to the highest morality and by a sincere effort to creat law that reflects it.

Nothing bad can happen to a good person in this life or the next. A saying.