Bush: I screwed you all. But thanks for blaming it on the black guy

[Matt1970]

Or he said this:



It seems odd to complain about people making up what conservatives are saying while simultaneously trying to ignore what conservatives are saying.

Umm, ya, not a good rebuttal but at least you are actually quoting people now.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Aside from China, name a major economy that is out performing ours at the moment (and since the crisis) and you would like to change places with.

Obama has been a far better steward of the economy than Bush has.

It hasn't been by accident either. The choices for the stimulus, needed spending where possible and support for the central bank QE programs has been vital, despite the vocal opposition and unpopularity. History will judge this favorably.


Country or group, #2009 employment, #2014, # growth. % growth
United States, 139.9 million, 145.9 million, 5.98 million, 4.27 %
IMF: 36 advanced economies (except U.S.), 326.5 million, 332.8 million, 6.28 million, 1.92%
IMF: G7 (except U.S.), 196.1 million, 200.8 million, 4.72 million, 2.41%

Outside of signing bills that have been passed through congress all presidents (past and present) in the US have very little control or influence over the outcomes that occur within the economy, thankfully.

 

[fskimospy]

Umm, ya, not a good rebuttal but at least you are actually quoting people now.

It's not my fault you didn't read the thread.

 

[shira]

So which economies would mist Americans want to change places with? I can think of at least a few. Let's start with Scandinavia and move on from there shall we?

I'm not so sure:

Iceland: 46.22% highest marginal tax rate.

Finland: 49.2% highest marginal tax rate.

Netherlands: 52% highest marginal tax rate.

Denmark: 55.4% highest marginal tax rate.

Sweden: 56.6% highest marginal tax rate.

And these rates kick in at relatively low incomes compared to the $407,000 needed to "qualify" for America's top bracket.

For those Americans whose affluence is below the 75th percentile, you're probably correct. But for those with upper-middle class or higher lifestyles, living in Scandinavia would represent a decrease in standard of living.

 

[Matt1970]

I'm not so sure:

Iceland: 46.22% highest marginal tax rate.

Finland: 49.2% highest marginal tax rate.

Netherlands: 52% highest marginal tax rate.

Denmark: 55.4% highest marginal tax rate.

Sweden: 56.6% highest marginal tax rate.

And these rates kick in at relatively low incomes compared to the $407,000 needed to "qualify" for America's top bracket.

For those Americans whose affluence is below the 75th percentile, you're probably correct. But for those with upper-middle class or higher lifestyles, living in Scandinavia would represent a decrease in standard of living.

That's just it. Everyone wants what the Scandinavians or Canadians or Germans or whoever have but don't want the taxes it costs to pay for them. Also don't forget a lot of those countries also have sales taxes that approach 20% and some have import duties even higher.

 

[Matt1970]

It's not my fault you didn't read the thread.

Seems like you are seeing the words but different ones are registering in your brain.

This is what he said:

Lol at Liberals still blaming Bush after their "chosen one" hasn't done shit in 6 years.

This is what you guys are claiming people are saying:

conservatives ...consider the best performing economy in the developed world to be nothing
see people above defending someone as terrible as bush
most Americans want to change places with Scandinavia

I seem to have lost my English to liberal dictionary, maybe you can tell me how any of those are the same as what he said.

 

[doubledeluxe]

I'm not so sure:

Iceland: 46.22% highest marginal tax rate.

Finland: 49.2% highest marginal tax rate.

Netherlands: 52% highest marginal tax rate.

Denmark: 55.4% highest marginal tax rate.

Sweden: 56.6% highest marginal tax rate.

And these rates kick in at relatively low incomes compared to the $407,000 needed to "qualify" for America's top bracket.

For those Americans whose affluence is below the 75th percentile, you're probably correct. But for those with upper-middle class or higher lifestyles, living in Scandinavia would represent a decrease in standard of living.

Thank you Shira. An intelligent response to my post. Thank you.

I don't know where the magic cut off number is. Someone here might but lets assume it's 75%.

That means a vast majority would prefer to live in countries (we can add on more countries besides Scandinavia) where they basically get

• Free Education
• Free Healthcare
• Free daycare
• A generous pension plan
• Make $42K a year
• and get to enjoy 25-40 days of vacation

Now of course it is not "free" and is paid for by taxes but when you compare this to our system

• Incredibly expensive education
• Incredibly expensive Healthcare
• Incredibly expensive daycare
• Social Security
• Make $55K a year
• and no legally mandated vacation with most people only taking 10 days and the USA having the least amount of bank holidays. In the USA 25% don't even get vacation.

I think we can agree that the vast majority of Americans would trade systems in a heartbeart. How many? Probably even higher than the 75% percentile. That's a household income of $91K. At that income you're better off in Europe. I would think it's going to be closer to the 10% bracket of over $118,000 a year.

Talking about our GDP is completely irrelevant. People care about their own pocketbooks. I just admitted I did above. The key is to look out for your own best interests without burning the country down to the ground.

 

[fskimospy]

Seems like you are seeing the words but different ones are registering in your brain.

This is what he said:

This is what you guys are claiming people are saying:

conservatives ...consider the best performing economy in the developed world to be nothing
see people above defending someone as terrible as bush
most Americans want to change places with Scandinavia

I seem to have lost my English to liberal dictionary, maybe you can tell me how any of those are the same as what he said.

"Hasn't done shit" = "Has done nothing"

Therefore he considers having the best economy in the developed world to be nothing.

Maybe I can find my english to conservative dictionary.. which I guess would just be ARRRRGH OBUMMER.

 

[Sonikku]

Worst president since WWII:

This is what happens when you let unemployment creep up to 32%.

 

[Matt1970]

Thank you Shira. An intelligent response to my post. Thank you.

I don't know where the magic cut off number is. Someone here might but lets assume it's 75%.

That means a vast majority would prefer to live in countries (we can add on more countries besides Scandinavia) where they basically get

• Free Education
• Free Healthcare
• Free daycare
• A generous pension plan
• Make $42K a year
• and get to enjoy 25-40 days of vacation

Now of course it is not "free" and is paid for by taxes but when you compare this to our system

• Incredibly expensive education
• Incredibly expensive Healthcare
• Incredibly expensive daycare
• Social Security
• Make $55K a year
• and no legally mandated vacation with most people only taking 10 days and the USA having the least amount of bank holidays. In the USA 25% don't even get vacation.

I think we can agree that the vast majority of Americans would trade systems in a heartbeart. How many? Probably even higher than the 75% percentile. That's a household income of $91K. At that income you're better off in Europe. I would think it's going to be closer to the 10% bracket of over $118,000 a year.

Talking about our GDP is completely irrelevant. People care about their own pocketbooks. I just admitted I did above. The key is to look out for your own best interests without burning the country down to the ground.

Where do you get this from? If the vast majority would trade in a heartbeat, there would be a hell of a lot of people moving there. $42K/year is below the average household income here here, so you have less pay with higher taxes so you bring home less. You have a higher sales tax and import duties so thing cost more. And we have free education through High School and a good chunk of people don't even go that far.

 

[Matt1970]

"Hasn't done shit" = "Has done nothing"

Therefore he considers having the best economy in the developed world to be nothing.

Maybe I can find my english to conservative dictionary.. which I guess would just be ARRRRGH OBUMMER.

Oh I see, you are trying to give Obama credit for the economy. I should have known better.

 

[doubledeluxe]

(making up numbers)

USA has $100 in 1990
China has $40 in 1990

USA has $90 in 2000
China has $60 in 2000

USA has $80 in 2010
China has $70 in 2010

USA has $70 in 2014
China has $72 in 2014

The answer should not be "YAY THE USA IS DOING GREAT!"

It really is the slope that we should be looking at. Ours is going down. Once we turn it around and have a positive slope than we can be proud of our economy.

 

[doubledeluxe]

Where do you get this from? If the vast majority would trade in a heartbeat, there would be a hell of a lot of people moving there. $42K/year is below the average household income here here, so you have less pay with higher taxes so you bring home less. You have a higher sales tax and import duties so thing cost more. And we have free education through High School and a good chunk of people don't even go that far.

There are a hell of a lot of people moving there. I speak from experience. The expat community was huge compared to when I lived there in the 90's. Google the stats.

If you bring home less but don't need to spend it on education, healthcare, and the myriad of other things that slowly is making Americans poorer then you're doing much better. Only a very select few and during a very specific time in your life will be doing better in the USA than there. Maybe you will do better in the USA and that's fine. However the VAST majority are doing worse in the USA.

It really should't be this hard for you to understand. Look at your expenses. Taxes included. Double your taxes on your budget and then remove healthcare, daycare, education, and so on from there and add on tons of vacation.

 

[fskimospy]

Oh I see, you are trying to give Obama credit for the economy. I should have known better.

I'm not giving him all of the credit for the economy, but I would definitely give him credit for some of it.

We've seen from Europe the negative effects of foolish fiscal policy. Republicans were attempting to implement similar policies here. Obama played a big part in stopping this.

Pretty simple.

 

[Linux23]

It really should't be this hard for you to understand. Look at your expenses. Taxes included. Double your taxes on your budget and then remove healthcare, daycare, education, and so on from there and add on tons of vacation.

Americans don't need no stinking vacation.

 

[doubledeluxe]

And we have free education through High School and a good chunk of people don't even go that far.

Yeah we rank very low on high school graduation rates. Our test scores are even worse.

The good news though is that our high school graduation rate is improving. Slopes of graphs matter.

 

[Matt1970]

There are a hell of a lot of people moving there. I speak from experience. The expat community was huge compared to when I lived there in the 90's. Google the stats.

If you bring home less but don't need to spend it on education, healthcare, and the myriad of other things that slowly is making Americans poorer then you're doing much better. Only a very select few and during a very specific time in your life will be doing better in the USA than there. Maybe you will do better in the USA and that's fine. However the VAST majority are doing worse in the USA.

It really should't be this hard for you to understand. Look at your expenses. Taxes included. Double your taxes on your budget and then remove healthcare, daycare, education, and so on from there and add on tons of vacation.

Well, find a politician who is willing to run on that and the taxes needed to pay for it, and you will see the percentage of Americans willing to trade in a heartbeat.

 

[doubledeluxe]

Well, find a politician who is willing to run on that and the taxes needed to pay for it, and you will see the percentage of Americans willing to trade in a heartbeat.

Well we aren't exactly famous for spending tax dollars wisely now are we?

Different discussion.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Invading Iraq was the single greatest foreign affairs disaster in American history. Given the deceitful methods Bush used to get America involved in it, I am still shocked that he has not been indicted for a crime of some sort. One wonders if the thing that Bush broke is beyond repair. It certainly appears so at present. The Iraq war is beyond forgivable, all of Obama's failures COMBINED pale in comparison.

Why would you be surprised that Bush wasn't indicted? Obama has either ignored abuses related to our involvement or outright opposed releasing or pursuing information which would make an indictment possible. After all if Bush was held accountable he might be as well if information came to light of abuses once he left office. One hand washes the other, even if it's blood that needs to be removed.

 

[kage69]

I don't know whether to hate him or worship him.

Sounds like Cheney and Rove knocked it out of the park with you!

I wouldn't be too loud or proud about not knowing if you should hate Bush if I were you. Somehow missing the many ways he dry fucked America over the course of 8 years doesn't strikes me as something you should admit to either - unless you're a Fox noise employee, were in a coma, or were marooned on an island somewhere...

 

[Jhhnn]

Outside of signing bills that have been passed through congress all presidents (past and present) in the US have very little control or influence over the outcomes that occur within the economy, thankfully.

So dishonest. Ideology matters wrt good stewardship of the economy. Preaching the Ownership Society from the bully pulpit matters. Instructing regulators to take a laissez faire attitude matters. Allowing the shadow banking system to leverage up to 30:1 or 40:1 matters. Neutering State banking regulators matters. In the face of an approaching cyclical peak in housing, allowing the FRB to cut interest rates to the lowest value since the 1970's matters.

The President isn't just some guy, he's the executor of the ideology of his Party, in this case the ideology of Failure.

 

[Jhhnn]

Why would you be surprised that Bush wasn't indicted? Obama has either ignored abuses related to our involvement or outright opposed releasing or pursuing information which would make an indictment possible. After all if Bush was held accountable he might be as well if information came to light of abuses once he left office. One hand washes the other, even if it's blood that needs to be removed.

More "They're just as Bad!", huh?

Repubs would have gone berserk had the Obama Justice Dept indicted Bush or Cheney. Congress would have ceased to function entirely.

Not to mention other bigger problems at the time, like trying to prevent total economic meltdown. How'd that happen, anyway? Was it really Barney Frank? Or was it Kenyan time warp voodoo mind control?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

More "They're just as Bad!", huh?

Repubs would have gone berserk had the Obama Justice Dept indicted Bush or Cheney. Congress would have ceased to function entirely.

Not to mention other bigger problems at the time, like trying to prevent total economic meltdown. How'd that happen, anyway? Was it really Barney Frank? Or was it Kenyan time warp voodoo mind control?

Thank you for consistently defending your President by demonstrating that he's a coward.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

So dishonest. Ideology matters wrt good stewardship of the economy. Preaching the Ownership Society from the bully pulpit matters. Instructing regulators to take a laissez faire attitude matters. Allowing the shadow banking system to leverage up to 30:1 or 40:1 matters. Neutering State banking regulators matters. In the face of an approaching cyclical peak in housing, allowing the FRB to cut interest rates to the lowest value since the 1970's matters.

The President isn't just some guy, he's the executor of the ideology of his Party, in this case the ideology of Failure.

This is a laughable reply considering that the changes to the banking system and lending rules pre-dated Bush Jr, i.e. they were approved by the Clinton administration and were well underway when Bush Jr. got into office.

Furthermore what do you call Fannie and Freddie Mac, HUD, CRA and its myriad of grants and programs, or the FLA (fair lending act), etc if not a part of the "Ownership Society"? The truth of the matter is you are a politically partisan kool aid drinker and any discussion with you is akin to talking to a religious fundamentalist on the negative effects of religion or pointing out that their messiah wasn't any better than the last guy, i.e. it's a pointless endeavor.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

This is a laughable reply considering that the changes to the banking system and lending rules pre-dated Bush Jr, i.e. they were approved by the Clinton administration and were well underway when Bush Jr. got into office.

Furthermore what do you call Fannie and Freddie Mac, Hud, etc if not a part of the "Ownership Society" or the FLA (fair lending act)? The truth of the matter is you are a politically partisan kool aid drinker and any discussion with you is akin to talking to a fundamentalist on the negative effects of religion, i.e. it's a pointless endeavor.

Oh it's even better.

From a fellow Democrat.

“After passing the stimulus, Democrats should have continued to propose middle class-oriented programs and built on the partial success of the stimulus. But unfortunately, Democrats blew the opportunity the American people gave them. We took their mandate and put all of our focus on the wrong problem – health-care reform.”

Obama really worked so hard on fixing the economy for the middle class that he conveniently ignored it in favor of his pet project, which he must not have done because the Republicans surely would have raised a fuss, and according to the Apologist Obama couldn't withstand such an onslaught.

Here's a link to the Right Wing Republican's statements.